one was edwards norton, mather man with a mission who brought a crucial conversation and his -- one was edward snowden, another man with a mission who brought a crucial conversation. which one was the more important? in a sense, it was a surprise. >> was a close? >> it was close. to the extent that we talked about it quite a lot. i would be the first to argue that what snowden has done, we are probably only beginning to impact of it. he has been indicted for espionage by the united states government. he is a hero to privacy activists. but a u.s. tech company who may be looking at losing hundreds of millions of dollars in business because your servers are no longer going to be trusted, the implications of his leaks are huge. >> i find that so inconsequential in terms of comparison because it seems to me that he did exactly what he said. he started a conversation. whereas the pope is doing more than to start a conversation. pope is engaged in a day by day process himself, by his actions and his deeds. in one of the most important institutions in the world. >> one of the biggest, one of th