jonathan mentioned, it is a martyr complex, it is egotistical. some people said, you are being egotistical. it was month -- none of those things. he wanted attention in the case because he knew that it would help him win the case. it would affect the prosecutor's decision. it would affect the judge if it ever got to the sentencing phase. a ultimately, he won the case. your concern the influence the way public defenders are portrayed in news media, and perhaps those who write for the entertainment media. >> before i move into how we can change the image, and want to ask jonathan a question. today, how would you cast for the role of a criminal defense attorney for television? >> i have had the pleasure of doing that twice. i created two series that nobody really watch. i have had the experience on two separate occasions, sitting with casting directors, trying to cast the role of defense lawyer. it is interesting, a defense lawyer can look american. kathy bates is playing one. jimmy smits is planning one. they focus group test television shows, like

he wasn't this egotistical meathead, he was this incredibly magnetic, you know, well-read -- just thisson who was just this fantastic human being. i really can't put my finger on one quality that he had. he just had so many and his brother and the rest of their family are exactly like them. >> larry: mary is going to be with us. pat is going to be leaving us with the two guys, we will meet two other women who faced the same thing but how did you handle, patrick, get all the other circumstances, the loss of a child? >> i didn't. i haven't yet. i'm still working on it. it's different. the gut-wrenching is not like it used to be. >> larry: not supposed to be, right? >> not supposed to be. it is not good. >> larry: when you hear these two young men talk? >> all the more -- another reason it would be nice to talk to pat now. >> larry: think you will ever get the answer, guys? >> will we ever get the answer about -- >> larry: the whole story? >> um, i feel the documentary that they have laid out is the whole story. i was very satisfied with it. >> larry: you too, russell? >> i would like to