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two thirds or three fourths of the people who help people file for eit c are not cpas, may may be very good people, but they are not really regulated by the treasury or have the kind of credentials we might hope. drill down on that. i want you to drill down for us on the ie tc the credentials of the folks who are helping most people file and what the problem is and what we should do. >> thank you. >> it's a lot of money. >> it's a lot of money. it is important to step back and remember the earned income tax credit program was passed and the president reagan. >> the best antipoverty program in the country. >> last year actually 26 million american families benefiting from benefited from the program. it is one that over the decades has proven its value command i think, sen., you touched on and actually this davis touched on it, too it, too, it is a program that has a high degree of complexity and that it is really based upon claim dependent children and a certain income level. and with you know with separations, divorce is establishing the custodial parent and making that determination,

reduce improper payments for the earned income tax credit, for 2013 about $14.5 billion in in proper eit see payments were made at about $5.9 billion for the child tax credit to both of these credits paid tax benefits for exceeding any tax break making them a prime target for anyone looking to participate in tax scams or id fraud. at the same time, the rules governing both of these credits are complex, opening them to innocent human error. the question is this -- in your opinion am a what amount of improper payments would you attribute to fraud versus innocent taxpayer error, and he suspected at least an significant amount. >> it is clear that the fraudsters look for any opportunity whatsoever to get at money. they are ruthless in their attempts. the fact they would use credits that are legally available to folks filing tax returns is not a foreign concept, i just don't have that information but i would be happy to meet with my audit staff and get a response to senator grassley. senator: if you would i would like to have that response as well. senator i've -- >> my wife said you need to

but is there ways that we can do a more eit more effectively and efficiently and what can we do to have you have the ability to do more with what you have? >> senator, first, you're absolutely correct that we as a military have to be efficient have to be effective, have to use the taxpayers' money very efficiently. my father was the cheapest human that god ever saw fit to put on this earth, i think. i am his son. and so we have been using the tools that this committee and this congress has given us. things i talked about, firm, fixed-price contracts, driving down things like that. but i'll show you a chart. here's what we have to do to buy anything. you can't read it. i can't either from here. it's spaghetti. it's a labyrinth that you've got to go there you. you could help us by taking out some of those things, by making us focus on what's important, and that's the outcome. we are also looking at things like contracts. the navy spends about $40 billion a year on contracts. and until couple of years ago, we could not track that money from the time you were appropriated, authorized and ap