in error on the eitc. the problem is trying to figure out a way to get enough information about each individual case so you can make a judgment about whether it's legal that they're claiming the benefit. it's a very expensive, hard thing to do. i once had i think a two-hour meeting with irs specifically on this issue about what we could do, and eventually, virtually nothing was done. we discussed all kinds of ideas but they were all very -- they would have greatly increased the workload of the irs. >> thank you, mr. chairman. thank you all. >> thank you, senator. i thank you, all of you. this is very provocative, very informative. the burden is on us to make sure the next steps are instructive, positive, but this has been very, very helpful. i've learned a lot, i know, from this hearing. thank you very, very much. this will help us move toward reauthorization of tanf and ancillary measures. thank you. hearing's adjourned.

the eitc has a vicious little characteristic. if a mother loses a job, she not only loses her earnings, she loses her eitc. so it's a double whammy. and that is -- i don't know what to do about that but that is a very serious problem. the eitc's a great thing, one of the best programs we have, but it's really a problem when someone loses a job or loses hours. >> that's a very good point, mr. chairman. and senator hatch. very good point. ms. lein? >> i just wanted to point out, following up on that, that what we're seeing is an increase in the variability of jobs so that people have jobs with variable hours. there's a great deal of underemployment as well as unemployment so that people are employed and as that underemployment sinks, other kinds of benefits sink as well. >> but at least even if they are underemployed, as dr. haskins points out, they've got a chance to get the earned income tax credit. >> they have a chance to get the income tax credit, but the sum will start dropping them under poverty again. >> final point. let me

one of these supports, the eitc, has a positive incentive for working. it stands out in that regard. the impact it had in terms of increasing labor force participation was noticeable upon its enactment the and upon it's ex papgss. it does testify to the importance of these programs, and although it's anecdotal, there are lots and lots of anecdotes. almost everybody knows these anecdotes of people who were making the calculations, about whether working more was worthwhile. and these people maybe sometimes are called gamers of the system. in truth, they are heroic, often. my own mother, she would complain about not having health insurance, and working. she said prisoners get health care when they need it. of i said, mom, if you need you can go rob the bank. now, in europe, they have health insurance, and it's paid for primarily by payroll taxes and sales taxes. and it's not -- it haven't -- it has a much bigger apparent cost than our system does. our system has a larger real cost in terms of the disincentive effect in terms of keeping people in certain sta

the eitc phases and and out. that's easy to the tax rate.how do you handle something where you have a cliff where you lose eligibility entirely or the adults will lose health insurance and the children are still covered and they lose eligibility. so, there is hour to making those calculations i wonder whether i should update the calculations i had in my 2008 article in the presentation and the supreme court to speak on the issue of health care reform and the payroll tax of and above the federal income-tax rate for the first bracket and the tax credit going down so let me have the same calculations i had several years ago. the point is pretty clear. when you consider income after taxes plus benefits you receive that there isn't much incentive for a lot of our fellow americans to work. the take-home affect me be 50 cents person and as much as 100% for others. we should have a big robust positive tangible fact for everybody in our system. this speaks to tax simplification and tax reform so that all pay their fair share, the focus today being th

work is the core of family stability, it is enabled by work supportive services including a robust eitc, tanf, particularly when used as a bridging program for family spacing time limited periods of need. access to child care and health care. a gradual diminution of welfare benefits as recipients enter work so they receive supports necessary for their stabilization. an emphasis on best employment practice so that parents can work and parent simultaneously. we need to look at alternate programs for parents physically or mentally unable to work. their access to disability services and their access to support such as supported work placements and longer term income and rehabilitative assistance. and we need programs that encourage and reward fathers fiscal and logistical involvement. child support programs that encourage that involvement and training and placement programs for men. and overall, we need opportunities for program experimentation and evaluation to support low income families and children. thanks very much. >> thank you, doctor, very much. ms. brown, you're next. >> chairman b

. >> i would add, the expansions that congress supported to the eitc in the recovery act have proven to be extremely helpful in all of the ways you've heard this morning. and i would try to ensure that those expansions remain a permanent part of the program. >> dr. bernstein, we'll talk about health care just a little bit. if i have a high-tech employee in austin, who has a great idea for a start-up, but a family of children with serious creating . similarly, if i have a poor person who can qualify and in texas it's difficult because the state under governor perry is about trying to prevent anyone from getting health care, but if they manage to qualify for benefits in the state of texas for health care with a sick family, and they choose not to seek a higher wage job in order to maintain that eligibility for medicaid, that also would appear to be not an indication of a lack of willingness to work but of an informed decision to try to provide health care protection. we attempted to respond to both types of informed decisions. with the affordable health care act and want the expansion

all the way up to the last that we know of during the recession we made a number of change in the eitc and the child tax credit that made it more generous to working families. so that is the strategy that works. that's the only thing, i think, that we've done that is -- will produce a fairly short-term impact on poverty. so we've got to increase work by single mothers and hopefully by males as well and subsidize the earnings. we need to maintain that system. we've got something that works. we need to expand it and stick with it. >> if we're 34th out of 35, what can we learn from other countries? what do other countries do that might be helpful here? >> well, first, i've never seen that number before. there are lots of big debates -- >> let's assume it's close. what can we learn from other countries? >> it depends on what you -- if you use our official poverty measure, it's crazy. all these programs that i just talked about aren't included in the official poverty measure. >> that's unicef. that's the source of this. >> makes it even more doubtful. >> whatever it is, you're not condoning

the problem with the solutions for eitc, is trying to figure ot a way to get enough information aboutach individual case so you can make a judgment about whether or not it is legal that they're claiming the benefits. it is a very expensive thing to do. i once had a two our meeting with the irs, specifically on this issue about what we can do and eventually, nothing was done. we discussed all kinds of ideas but they would have increased the workload of the irs. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thank you, senator. this is very provocative. very informative. we need to make sure that the next steps are instructive. i learned a lot from this hearing. thank you very, very much for helping us move towards the reauthorization of tanf. we return. -- we are adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2012] >> they are often referred to as the contents of the congress. i cannot think of a better name. it is the heartbeat of the people. >> executive director and general counsel of the congressional black caucus on the role o

other strategies -- so we need to emphasize work and we need to maintain the work support system, the eitc, earned income tax credit. it's not very controversial for the federal congress to be involved in preschool because it has been for so long. and i think our childcare that we spend a lot of federal dollars on is the heart of the problem because it's of average quality or worse and that's where we can make progress by increasing the average quality of childcare. and we have lots of strategies. we can reduce teen pregnancy. we have reduced teen pregnancy since 1991 except for two years. so we have a lot of strategies there. even if the 20-somethings we have a numbers program including more coverage of comprehensive family planning services and mass advertising campaigns and plus the teen pregnancy programs. if we spent more money on these three programs we would reduce nonmarital birth rates and that would be a good start toward addressing poverty. >> thank you, doctor. that's good. >> thank you. i also want to thank chairman bacus and ranking member hatch and members of the -- senator