i don't know if you have ever been in a enknow, but they're not exactly, you know five-star quality carsi don't want to hear from the owners out there, but when renault turns its nose up at something and says it stinks, that is a bad sign. that's all i'm saying. >> i would simply argue, neil, that the saturn deal fell through not because of the u.s. government, but despite the u.s. government's support for general motors. i mean this is an effort the whole time for saturn. for g.m. to get rid of the losing money, but we nobisness deals fall -- business deals fall apart all the time. neil: saturn is taking their pound of flesh. they will make money on some spin-offs and we got the ball rolling here, an renault was liking it for a while and then they looked at it and said this is a pile of you know what, and that's what really happened. >> but they said it is a pile of you know what, not necessarily because they didn't want to deal with the government, and by the way, the government didn't come in and take over general motors on the contingency that it would save saturn. i mean, the altern