besides, they charged him with the klan act, with enron statutes with financial fraud statutes.t is not a crime. that is not a crime. remember when i presented to you over 40 leaks by the government or 6 month period to cnn, "new york times" and "washington post," they are here, the. judge could from found them, anything could have. even maggie habberman, who is doing the leaking? and jack smith, so-called special counsel, had the guts or gall to go under that courtroom last week and say to the judge, how dare trump's lawyer go on tv, he keeping talking and talking about his case here, is ark allowed, to pal, this is not the hague this is the united states, who is judge tanya chunkin, life long democrat appointed by barack obama, so far trump getting democrat judges and democrat prosecutor who worked for eric holder and clclose to jim comey, if there is a trial there will be a democrat jury, democrat, democrat, he is surrounded. she was an obama-biden donor and worked at law firm that employeed hyun hib h hunter biden, she has ruled before against trump, that means they are free

of course, the huge irony is that that production ended up repeating exactly the journey of enron.ned up on the great white way in broadway with lots of people�*s money in it and just collapsed, very much like the energy company. and i tell you, if i didn�*t know the feeling of the show i was making till then, i did afterwards, you know. and so it was a very... yeah, it... look, success makes you attractive, but failure makes you funny and it also makes you worth spending time with. like, the best stories in theatre and in all of show business come from the great failures. they start off, people go, "oh, i was in this awful show once." or, "0h..." you know, and that�*s... and it�*s character and all of that, but, yeah, it wasn�*t a great feeling, but it was meaningful, you know. we�*ve talked to quite a number of directors and actors on hardtalk, people who love that branch of the sort of show business, entertainment industry. what i haven�*t done is spoken to somebody who has done so well in theatre and in tv, but who�*s also embraced the world of gaming and actually used your wri

scandal investigation, the enron statutes, they have nothing to do with january 6 protests.n though this has been used so-called obstruction, against one protestser after another, this is not yet gone to supreme court it will be tested by supreme court, and i believe that supreme court will say no, it was never intended to be used that way, then count one. that count is a garden variety statute that federal government uses against federal contractors, people who chute t cheat government out of money that has been expanded to include you know challenging the legitimate activity of the government, again stretched out of control, those are the 4 charges, this is a disgusting attack on our electoral system. as i have said before, the electoral system in america is dead unless this is reversed. we ca cannot have after all these years, a department of justice and u.s. attorneys with 20/20 hindsight delving into what a president or candidate thinks. the 1876 election, i told you, you are free to do, that congress decides this stuff, they are not criminal activities. so what are the

ththe enron act, he loves that. and financial fraud, crap, are in smi mr.oes do washington and mr. smith blows up the place, and atlanta georgia, fani willis, her indictment, i don't even know if he read the damn thing this is a hundred pages of bull, i could take one second out section. are you allowed to challenge a campaign and open and challenge as legitimacy, according to her no, put rico aside, she just changed someone with a felony were state law for exercising there are federal first fundament free speech right, that is part of this crap, i've got ple >> i am jon scott, now back to "life, liberty and levin." mark: welcome back america, i want to spend a few minutes addressing one legal issue, you heard it say a president cannot pardon himself under state changes. where does that come from in no where, federalism, this is reverse federalism. or charges a sitting president, and indicts them or convicts them in county in georgia or new york, you are decapitating one part of the government, one-third of the government. so the executive branch can't func

tthe enron act, he loves that. and financial fraud, crap, are i mr.do washington and mr. smith blows up the place, and atlanta georgia, fani willis, her indictment, i don't even know if he read the damn thing this is a hundred pages of bull, i could take one second section. are you allowed to challenge a campaign and open and challenge as legitimacy, according to her no, put rico aside, she just changed someone with a felony were state law for exercising there are federal first fundament free speech right, that is part of this crap, i've got ple more to say i'll be right back. as a teacher, acellus gold gives me a way to keep the parents connected with what's going on here at school. i love that i can sign in to the acellus app and see what my student did that day where they struggle and what they succeeded in. it gives parents an opportunity to celebrate achievements with their students and provide motivation and encouragement when needed. parents can dive in and review a particular lesson or look ahead and see what's coming in the course. there was

the latest time, well began when enron khan was announced that this time it is the last year, is southern time, brun locally selling state gifts. con denies the charges of his lawyers say a high court has taken up their appeal. meantime, an election is due in the next few months, but could be delayed as constituencies or re written based on a new census. more uncertainty, along with soaring inflation, widespread unemployment and crippling foreign debt. these on the streets of pakistan, people have been expressing doubts about their future. progress on your partner stands, future suffered a setback. the date i'm wrong cons, government was toppled. in fact, it is imperative that any government, whether in wrong congress or no, was show reeves of the pakistan people's party or any other party, complete their 5 year term. for this all institutions, even the establishment have to agree to be on one page of pakistan is to move forward for court sentence as a person, he has the right to appeal against the decision. if someone is disqualified by the election commission, even before, he has a chan

your jails down of enron han has been suspended. this is a big leak as victory for him. ron hahn earlier this month, he was sentenced to 3 or a j, a. d a sentence and basically document that he could be disqualified, far as running into elections. and he was facing charges of, of corruption on stealing speed gift while he was in the office. now his lawyer said that he up the, the court has ordered being um, but in another case that pertains to a leak offer some document. uh and the court has asked you to try to do is to keep him in detention. so for now we know that at least spend wednesday, he will be in jail because tomorrow wednesday he will be produced before the court be it's difficult to fear what the future of we see off him, ron high, because he feels as more than 100 gifts. okay, so his release at least though, is not imminent. i'm curious also what this ruling is going to mean for political instability and pockets done. i can't, i don't think the political chaos in focused on his ending anytime soon or what his lawyers will try to be tried that his disqualifica

ththe enron act, he loves that. and financial fraud, crap, are in smi mr. washington and mr. smith blows up the place, and atlanta georgia, fani willis, her indictment, i don't even know if he read the damn thing this is a hundred pages of bull, i could take one second out section. are you allowed to challenge a campaign and open and challenge as legitimacy, according to her no, put rico aside, she just changed someone with a felony were state law for exercising there are federal first fundament free speech right, that is part of this crap, i've got ple listen up, you dogs with allergic itch! today's talking lesson is just one word: apoquel. ap--o--quel. ♪ you can't teach your itchy dog to talk... ...so, talk to your vet about apoquel. apoquel is for the control of allergic itch in dogs. do not use apoquel in dogs with serious infections. apoquel may increase the chances of developing serious infections... ...and may cause existing parasitic skin infections or pre-existing cancers to worsen. new neoplasias have been observed. i'm glad we speak the same lang

that is you look at the enron case.cedented on the enron case, which there was a five-year delay between the investigation of that complex case and when the actual case went to trial. what is the excuse for a speedy trial in these cases for right now? >> well, i think the optimal is always speedy trial. it's in statute. you do try to get a quick resolution of these things. sometimes it's in the interest of both sides to delay. sometimes the nature of the case requires delay. but you know, generally speaking, it's best to get these cases resolved. deciding when to bring a case is a difficult decision to make. a lot of people are confused about the standards here. the department's policy is simple this: you don't make decisions for the purpose of bringing about a particular political outcome. then out of that grew the idea that if there's a secret investigation, the public doesn't know about, you shouldn't spring it on the public on the eve of an election or where it would affect the election to make that known. those con

it happened in enron. it happened in organized crime cases. this is a standard problem when you are a praugs kurt of house counsel. and the problem to buy influence. just to be clear, there are some lawyers who can be paid by a company and they do their job. they represent the individual, and that's what they're supposed to do. but i'll give you one quick exemp. in enron, there was a junior person, that company paid for the counsel and that person turned and said to the person representing mareal linch and said it's been an honor representing you. they get a lawyer and the lawyer is giving them advice and say this is what you need to do the company is paying for it and we're taking care of you. they don't have a reason to be thinking this is a problem and the issue and they have the company saying this is standard procedure. it takes somebody with sort of cassidy hutchinson's moral integrity, here the chief judge in d.c. interceded to say you should at least speak to independent counsel before you make a decision that you want to -- >> that's

it happened in enron. it happened in organized crime cases.his is a standard problem when you're a prosecutor of house counsel. and the problem that money buys influence. just to be clear, there are some lawyers who can be paid by a company, and they do their job. they represent the individual. that's what they're supposed to do. but, i'll give you one quick example, in enron, there was a junior person, the company paid for that person's counsel. when we finish the interview, i remember that person's lawyer turned to the general counsel of meryl lynch and said, it's been an honor representing you. i remember going, that's the problem. that's the issue. >> in that case, did the junior staffer, not like, understand the dynamic at play? >> you have to remember, what's really hard for somebody who is not experienced with the legal system, they get a lawyer, the lawyer's giving them advice. and saying this is what you need to do. and the company is paying for. we're taking care of you. they don't have a reason to be thinking this is a problem or th

that's an argument that was made in the enron case. it was made in the watergate case. it was made in the special counsel mueller case. it was made in the boston bombing case. when you have a matter that's so high profile that every district knows about it, that argument fails. the supreme court has ruled on that. the former ceo of enron said it was fine to hold the trial in houston, even though that was the location of the crime. that argument is going to fail. the same way it did when the watergate defendants, to date myself, or paul manafort, the case i litigated, made that same argument. all of that fails. it's required for the judge to do a very careful selection of the jury to make sure that they are unbiased and can base their verdict -- as joyce said -- based on the facts and law as instructed by the court. the second argument that you reference, which is i want a jury pool that is either more democratic or more republican, that is not the law. that is the argument that the watergate defendants made, that's an argument that paul manafort made. you do not get to

and security has been increased and focused on the imprisonment of enron. khan, the former prime minister has called on supporters to homes. pizza protests, a quote sentence, cons to 3 years in prison for corruption on saturday, the, the netherlands have reached the quarter finals of the woman's world comp. they beat south africa to nellum sydney. that sets off a game against spain waddington for a place in the semi finals. the netherlands were found as of the usa at the last world cup in 2019 alex thomas was at that game and sit down who's joining us live and a solid performance by the dutch team. alex it certainly was and you know, it's a shame to see so after the going home that success along with that of some of the other lady rings less how old it seems as we want the joys of this women's world cup, sorry, fall. but in the, in that huge gap on how you foot told, you know, $45.00 places difference in the world rankings for dr. thompson to europe and champions as recently as 2018. as you mentioned, reaching the final of the last women's world cup for years ago. just too much the handle

i'm kimberly helped get into how, with the top stories on algebra, 5 us citizens has been moved from enron in prison, to house arrest as part of a deal between the united states and iran. it is part of in an initial agreement that involves the release of billions of dollars of ronnie and funds frozen and held in south korea. we are glad to see that these 5 americans are out of evan prison.

this is a diplomatic document that going missing while it was in, in enron funds for vision. and so, uh, that district represented before that was on the 3rd year, which is tomorrow. i so unlikely that is going to be released. there was an anticipation that perhaps the cords were also grant a relief. in other cases, which are still ongoing. hidden noise have filed and the pain and the card the heading, and they need to take place tomorrow. but it appeared that they were on funds drop . those may not be a while yet. so it's 5 years this month since, and my income became prime minister. besides until april 2022. when you was ousted off the, losing the parliamentary vote of confidence. he sends face to series of challenges including corruption, terrorism writing. in march, the high court in islamabad issued an arrest warrant fully allegations that he sold state guests while in office gone, denied corruption, but was convicted in jail. the start of this month, the sentence has since been suspended and his release ordered by high court judges . well, earlier i spoke to site is a c

the problem, and as to enron, con, has been arrested in the for court, has sent in, sent to 3 years in prison for legally southern states guess west african nations have given me, she has qu latest onto sunday, to give up talent and return to civilian roles the regions defense ministers have drawn up a plan for possible military intervention. and russian officials say one of the oil tag cause has been hit and then you'll find me an attack in the black sea pacific vessels. the engine room was damaged and the strikes said no one was hurt. i'll just see what has been given grant access to a coal mine and a punch of russian controlled eastern ukraine near don yeske following last week, russia, africa, summers, and law school. local officials say coal mines in the region could soon be exported to the content of the house and reports from maki up near dawn. yet, at the end of the night shift funny collide and his fellow minus they spend 6 hours every life down this foss, coal mine, and lucky if you have a sticky of genius for your work. but from what i've been doing this job for 18 years, th

this is a different magic document that ran missing while it was in, in enron funds for eviction. and so our district represented before that was on the 3rd year, which is tomorrow. i so unlikely that is going to be released. there was an anticipation that perhaps the card would also grant a relief in other cases, which are still ongoing. hidden noise have filed in their pain and the card the heading is likely to take place tomorrow. but it appeared that they were on funds drop. those may not be a while yet. row of us on is a spokesman for him. wrong. com. he says comes freedom is in a short yet a conviction should not have been pronounced at the 1st patient. oh, i think it was a, it's a fig. and brought in additional and be we, we live with all of us been contending and all that. it was a, it was the case, you know, based on the federal substance and all can think back, do you want the punishment game or we knew that it was be meditated and be on edge . so you know, know that the, the chief justice of these talk about high school to see to suspend the sentence no being only hopin

this is a different magic document that grand missing while it was in, in enron funds for vision. and so uh, our district represented before dashboard on the 3rd year, which is tomorrow. i so unlikely that day is going to be released. there was an anticipation that i have the cord regardless of drawn dam relief and other cases which are still ongoing. headboards are filed and the pain and the card the heading and they need to take place tomorrow. but it appeared that im ron cons troubles may not be aware yet. what sides of the cod bouquet is to see me a need to pack this done to it because it's, if he says con is remaining behind boss. and it's a continuation of the targeted harassment boss or his, the amount of funds the name is not allowed to be taken on public television. his picture is not allowed to be shown. 130-121-3000 office leaders and his workers are in prison at the moment, man, women, and children, people, all his leaders, orland hiding or in prison or an exile. so we're saying that this is not politically motivated. i think now this has become a joke in the country,

generation of americans led by the 1960s generation that live off the land tilled pie americans for 250 enronseat country and replace it by what they were taught by marxist professors. the institution through which they are working is the democratic party and they have devoured our culture and political institutions from the top down. and now, you can see how their state is grows in size, power and boldness. read all about it right here, "the democrat party hates america." it always has and it always will. it is in fact an evil institution and hated america since its founding, the founding of the democratic party. i'll see you next time on "life, liberty and levin." ♪. trey: good evening and thank you >> good evening and thank you for joining us, i'm trey gowdy, this is "sunday night in america." in the movie with maximus, in quick, boring form screams at the crowd, are you not entertained? is this not why you are here? he was pointing out that flaw in human nature which confuses what is important wit

election election date, which is still to be set will actually go ahead without for my permanence to enron . come, he was convicted for corruption last week. i'm sentenced to 3 years in jail. so those are the headlines, but he's continues here and i'll just say are off the counting the cost stations as to what you bye for now. the showings degree here is coming over our heads from russian positions and new cranium. positions have been standing about how they were directly targeted as they were trying to sleep. we've seen some of the residents come out of the building with that possessions in suitcases by substantial safe anymore. what happens on that day is a war crime shows how many regions across the lines and know that the level of destruction here, proof of just how fits the fighting has been in recent weeks this russian or don't . some on a street has been a place of pilgrimage for centuries. the, although i'm adrian fund, again, this is counting the cost on al jazeera. you know, we can look at the world of business and economics. this rates, central banks a holding gold, increasingly

i'm kimberly helped get into how, with the top stories on algebra, 5 us citizens has been moved from enron in prison, to house arrest as part of a deal between the united states and iran. it is part of in an initial agreement that involves the release of billions of dollars of ronnie and funds frozen and held in south korea. we are glad to see the these 5 americans are out of evan prison in, in house arrest. one of them already wasn't house, arrest the other for our point placed in house, arrested today. that's a good thing. they're no longer in prison, but they're not out of the wrong. in the negotiations, continue with the, the iranians to try to get them out of the country and back home here in the united states where they belong with their families. and so i'm not going to do a lot of negotiating here on the, on television. we're still in active discussions with the, with the ryans and when we get them home and they're safe and sound back with their families. and then we'll be a little, i think, at liberty to, to talk a little bit more about what those negotiations look like. the west

part of the ruling is was that they didn't have to move the enron trial out of houston.s going to be very tough to do it. >> laura: yeah, i don't think they have will win on that one. sol and mike as always, thank you. as they desperately work to get trump off the ballot. they are also working on another contingency plan. this plan b, c or d i lost track. making sure is he in court long enough that he basically won't be able to campaign. the judge on trump's january 6th case just set a trial date as i said earlier on march 4th of 2024. that day sounds kind of familiar it's the same day the georgia d.a. fani willis wanted so she got what she wanted why is that day so displil high demand. anything else happening around the same time? oh, yeah. super tuesday is the next day. but that judge apparently thinks that doesn't matter. trump just needs to have to make it work. >> when you have a court date when you are in the justice system, that takes precedence over our things. your dry cleaning pickup that day. your professional networking commitments, your job. she is saying wh

biden did not even give enron call a call after he was elected. if you could respond? very polarized political environment in pakistan, perhaps more than in many decades. people's perceptions of this reflect that polarization inside pakistan society. looking at history, one thing that is undeniable, the military does not make a move -- the u.s. is effectively part of the governing contact of society. at the time this meeting took place, imran khan was already on thin ice with the military after initially having his rise sponsored by their support. as we see this document, the military was waiting in many ways for some sort of green light from the u.s. had it not gotten a green light or the u.s. said we had no position in politics, was harder to imagine a subsequent event such took place. on thing that is important we learn from this disclosure is specifically was about the war in ukraine. after khan was removed, we saw a very distinct change in pakistan's stance on the ukraine conflict. just a few days before he was removed, and general gave a speech contradicting khan

the enron statutes. to fill a gap that was -- that they felt needed to be applied because they didn't have what was necessary to charge certain executives with obstructing justice. this has nothing to do with what took place on january 6th or before january 6th or after january 6th. this matter that they have used against protesters on january 6th is extremely controversial and the supreme court hadn't decided it yet but cases are going to the supreme court on these counts. how dare this prosecutor use these statutes against a former president of the united states. then we have count 1, 18 usc 371, cheating the government, interfering with legitimate government authority, this was aimed at financial fraud, federal contractors, others who are ripping off the federal government. this indictment, mre reason they didn't bring insurrection and is he dish conspiracy because there was no insurrection and seditious conspiracy. i want to say something to mike pence, fought like hell, he didn't want to tevin front

real problem in the legal system i saw when i was doing organized crime cases i saw when i was doing enron and everyone is seeing now to be clear though there are ethical lawyers who can do this but there also are examples and i have seen it firsthand where lawyers do not make that distinction and i think that the person who is paying has a real client interest and that is the problem that we are seeing and that is the reason it's so important that someone has independent counsel giving them advice it is in their interest and not in the interest of anyone else meal it seems inconceivable given our current state of public knowledge about donald trump and his lifetime practices it seems inconceivable that donald trump would pay an attorney for anyone. so anything other than serve donald trump's interest. >>. >> that's exactly right lawrence and i think to just zoom out for a moment. donald trump tonight is facing the triple threat to the superseding indictment by jack smith a couple of days ago. that's just in mar-a-lago we're not talking about january 6th. but that triple threat here from m

the reason is, under this reasoning, the enron case which i prosecuted would still be awaiting trial.nafort case as an example of a d. c. case that went to trial within 11 months, we'd still be waiting for that. page by page review is no longer done, whether in civil cases are criminal cases because of the vast volume of electronic data. you do electronic searches. that is just commonplace in all of these courtrooms. judge chutkan knows it, the defense lawyers know it, the prosecutors know it. this is written for someone else. but having said that, the real issue for her is, what is the delta of additional material that the government is turning over and how much time do they need to look at that material? remember, they've already gotten a lot from the january six committee, as we all did. so that delta is a thing that he needs to be focusing on and making sure that they have enough time to master that evidence and present it. in terms of what the defenses are to it. >> amy lee copeland, as a criminal defense lawyer, i don't know how many times a day you have had to read war and peac

i'm like wow that's enron, george bush.laughter] and then the present is when you get there and the trucks are dumping. it's fun to make fun of but it's not so funny. just to see the immensity of this this is one counties creation.l >> is still an active landfill? looks very in the guy went up with a gun to ohio state university and said you know, there is this culture 1000 years ago that built mount all around the ohio river valley and down the mississippi something we should all be aware of these places present i know, i went to ohio state university he started telling me about those and said our mounds are not like those amounts. [laughter] correct so many interesting places and so many interesting people. so, you are walking along you've got a water bottle in your water bottle is empty and you are thirsty. you encounter very interesting individual. all you want is to fill your water bottle. not so easy, right? tell us. >> one of the things that was really amazing is the second day. it only took two days for me too reali

the judge will typically -- and i'm confident this is what will happen because it is what we did in enron and in the paul manafort case, send out hundreds of jury questionnaires that are incredibly detailed. both parties get to have input into what those questions are. everyone then renews those and you weed out people who obviously cannot be there simply based on the answers to those questions. and then the remaining pool of jurors are brought in and the federal judge goes over individually specific questions that are problematic to assure herself that each of those jurors can put aside whatever they have heard, whatever preconceived views they have and just base their verdict on what happens in the courtroom and that they can follow the law. it is a very detailed process and what is the foundation of our rule of law. it is inconceivable to me that this is going to be a case that won't be kept in d.c. there is no other venue where you won't have the same issue. this is widely known throughout the country. and as i mentioned, the supreme court of the united states in united states versus

and i was like, wow, that's it that's enron, george bush, second term, you know, and then the presentis when you get there and the trucks are dumping stuff in it, it's not it's sort of fun to make fun of, but it's not so funny, but it's just to see the immensity of this. this is one counties creation. and this is still an active landfill. a very yeah. and the guy that i went with had gone to ohio state university. and when we walked up, i said to, you know, there's this culture of years ago that built mounds all around the ohio river valley down the mississippi. so you might be is would all be aware of these these. and he said, oh, i know. i went to the university and he then started telling me about those maps and he said, our mounds are not like those mounds. so, so many interesting places and many interesting people. so you're walking along, you've got a water bottle and your water bottles empty. you're thirsty. oh yeah. and you encounter a very in the interesting individual all you want is to fill your bottle not so easy right. tell us you know it was of the things that really was

and don't have a mind to about top stories to sell a box. toms from apartments to enron. con has been arrested in the city of the for a course has sentenced him to 3 years in prison. in league of these southern states sketched legal next, but say the conviction may end comp, chances of running a national elections do. later this year, the, the french government has said it was somebody supposed to have a spot, the west, athens regional growth eco wants to make sure that the tree and the shift fails. west african nations have given me just coordinators until sunday to give up power and for time to civilian goals. and russian officials say one of the oil tag cause has been hit and the ukrainian attack and the black sea, they said the vessels engine room was damaged and the other night strike spots that no one was hers. the parts visit to portugal has approached as many as 1000000 pilgrims to the country. the visitor centered around the world. you say that has been ongoing protests across the country. those people are angered by the amount of money being spent on the paypal visit, while

so the yes is you want to present a clear, clean story that is not too complicated, such as enron, itas complicated and how do you present that to a jury, that's the risk, but as fani willis herself said about bringing a rico charge, is she wants to pren the whole picture to the jury of what happened, you know, and i do think it is the right approach, which is speak up to a jury, you know, you don't have to dumb things down, they should rely on their common sense, so here, this does encapsulate in brief, frankly, everything that they know that happened. >> do they run the risk though, of a jury or a juror saying, isn't his right to try to investigate stuff, isn't his right to say whatever he wants? why is this criminal? >> yes, so absolutely, it is his right to say whatever he wants publicly, and that goes to the press conference he has, it may be fiction, as garrett said, that's totally fine, that's what he is entitled to do, it is acting on it, or speaking in a way that furthers a crime that is a problem, so for instance, the charges that are making a false statement, or perjury, th

the downside in a stock that's been going down and down, and then it pulls yet another mess-up, an enron, and you plunge or you it's this circumstance. steep, steep uncorrected, and what comes out is not good enough to keep it going. but the real issue is this -- we're not getting the kind of follow-through from the ones that have popped google popped, didn't follow through. meta popped. netflix popped but the ones that have done the sort of the unhappy drop that's microsoft, apple, they've followed through the downside. and so, the nasdaq 100 now down more than 5%, one would have to assume that it's not going to stop here. >> all right, so, more downside ahead for the nasdaq, according to carter. >>> let's get to disney. subscriber losses, restructuring costs continue to weigh on the entertainment giant, but the company is raising prices for ad-free disney+. julia boorstin has been listening in on the call what's the latest? >> reporter: well, as you mentioned, melissa, disney has adjusted earnings were a big beat, as the company has made progress with cost-cutting this is something tha

and one of the statutes that he cited is based on enron, a company that got in trouble back during theancial crisis. that was a financial fraud -- paul: right. >> proving a political fraud, i think, is going to be very difficult. and i think the center of it is, it has to do with trump's state of mind. trump had to believe, with -- know what he was doing was wrong. and i think all of us could ask ourselves did donald trump actually believe that the election, that he had won the election? my view would be, yes, he does believe that, no matter what people were telling him. so jack smith has somehow got to prove, if he has evidence, that trump actually said to one of his associates i know that i lost this election, that would be one thing. but no evidence of that sort has been deduced up to this point at all. paul: kim, you wrote this week that the indictment runs the risk of setting a dangerous precedent in the sense that it criminalizes actions that politicians take based on lies. the indictment says flat out trump can lie all he wants about the election, but it's that taking the action

elizabeth holmes, the founder of theranos, is a dramatic recent example, while jeffrey scaling, ceo of enronconvicting such people. when confronted with individuals who relentlessly and pervasively make false statements, jurors usually conclude that they are liars. jurors get lying. they've met liars in their lives. they've been burned by them. they don't like them, end quote. donald trump's going around there saying, i sincerely believe i love the election. there's lots of evidence here he didn't win the election. how do you have that place? >> he also said he never heard of a mugshot. you know, the man grew up in new york city. come on, he heard of a mugshot. well the dea well listed in this case wisely, was charged very substantive crimes. so, the fake elector scheme, forgery for those false certifications, impersonating a public officer with fake electors. she included the intimidation and harassment of election workers, influencing witnesses, the voting machine tampering, computer tampering. , so she included charges that whether he says i truly believe it or not, you know, this ride sc

i saw it when i was prosecuting enron, and everyone is seeing it now. to be clear, though, there are ethical ethical lawyers who can do this. but there are also examples, and i have seen it firsthand, where lawyers do not make that distinction, and they think of the person who is paying as their real client in interest. and that's the problem that we are seeing and that's the reason it is so important that somebody has independent counsel giving them advice that's in their interest, and not in the interest of anyone else. >> neal katyal, it seems inconceivable, given our current state of public knowledge about donald trump and his lifetime practices, it seems inconceivable that donald trump would pay an attorney for anyone, to do anything other than serve donald trump's interests. >> that's exactly right, lawrence. and i think if you zoom out for a moment, i mean, donald trump tonight is facing a triple threat due to this superseding indictment by jack smith a couple of days ago. and that is just on mar-a-lago. we're not even talking about january 6th a