qualities; truth, goodness, beauty, evolution, peace, social justice, harmony, um, love, compassion, equianymorety. this is the religious experience that is a spontaneous expression of transseven dance, of being connected to the first cause, whatever you want to call it. so i think if you understand the religious experience, you know, had a religious experience. but i had a re-- buddha had a religious experience. and then, of course, the devil came and said let's institutionalize it, and we'll call it religion. [laughter] >> so you believe in the devil. >> i believe that everything has its opposite just like particles have antiparticles, the universe would be meaningless if it was not one of contrast. so when i'm saying devil; i think of it metaphorically as -- [inaudible] >> but so in the, for those of us, and leonard refers to this in the book, for those of us who lived through the 20th century one of the great challenges to people who say that god is good, awesome, beautiful, unifying, harmonious, et, is the, obviously, the experience of the holocaust or the experience, the confrontation with e