eric bentley , about myself, but eric bentley, kenneth tynan , they are really kenneth tynan, they are really in the illumination business. yes. yes you're there to stay late. thought and you're there to have an argument, perhaps. but it's not to dismiss as the most important thing about a critic is that he loves the medium that he's criticising that and that he knows something about it. >> so i forgot that bit. yes >> so i forgot that bit. yes >> you know, i think it's christopher hampton said to ask a working writer what he thinks of critics is like asking a lamppost what he thinks of dogs. and of course , the thing i and of course, the thing i object to in that joke is working writer because i think there's just good writing and bad writing and elegance or eloquence comes in in any genre , eloquence comes in in any genre, any genre. and my objection to a lot of the, the reviewing is , is lot of the, the reviewing is, is that the people who are passing judgement are book learned, but they haven't ever written anything . they haven't made anything. they haven't made anything. they haven't made anything , they've never written anything, they've never written anything, they've never written a joke book or a play or had an acting lesson. they have no idea of , of, of, they , they can see of, of, of, they, they can see something. they can know what's good, but they don't know why it's good. that's exactly the point. >> i'm so glad you made that. and but you see, that's part of the differentiation between most of the really in important critics on either side of the atlantic have all slept on both sides of the bed. >> they've made theatre and they've written about it. they know what the process is. finally going back to creativity i >> -- >> see how much creative liberty do you think there is in reviewing or critiquing as you write in your book on creativity , critical creativity is play. >> and my job is to sit in front of the play and let it happen on me . yeah, play with it. and when me. yeah, play with it. and when i sit in front of a in a typewriter, whether i'm playing , typewriter, whether i'm playing, i'm discovering it again. i'm reading , i'm discovering it again. i'm reading, imagining it, and i'm playing with the idea is and seeing how they resonate with me and in the culture. so in that sense, you're starting with a blank page and you're building up a story which which describes what you've you've seen, but also pushes it out and paints a larger picture. so in that sense , you're creating a, a narrative which has hopefully at its best, the possibility of entertaining and showing people something that they didn't know before. and that's what is creative . and that's what is creative. >> and i now see just listening to you now why all the people writing about your writing talk about its depth . well, thank about its depth. well, thank you, john. >> pleasure. >> pleasure. >> really, my love to call me tonight. i. will well, i can't talk about creativity without talking about painting. >> and for fortunately, i've known a very good painter for a very long time. i love her very much. she's lucy willis. she lives in somerset. lucy i'm so glad you could do this . glad you could do this. >> thank you for having me. john oh, we love each other. >> i used to have so many of your paintings and i had to sell them when i lost all my money. >> so you told me. yes. >> terrible. >> terrible. >> um, what i'm interested in is you. you do representational art, which is the art that i enjoy. but i'm interested in what you add. i mean, you look at a landscape or a piece of a street or something like that , street or something like that, and then you start to paint it, but you're not copying it. you're doing something else to make it into a great painting . make it into a great painting. what do you do you think about that? or is it just happen automatically? no there's always automatically? no there's always a little thought process that happens before the beginning of a painting, and sometimes it's a extremely short little process where you see something and you just think that's that's exciting. >> lovely . it's very often in my >> lovely. it's very often in my case, it's very often to do with a light . i case, it's very often to do with a light. i paint a lot of things that are so light sunlight, shadow , night—time scenes , but shadow, night—time scenes, but with a little bit of subtle moonlight window light, something like this. it's very often the trigger is the light . often the trigger is the light. and i'll see it and i'll log it in my head and think that i could possibly make a painting from apart from your technique, what else are you adding in a sense of creating ? sense of creating? >> that's an impossible question to answer. >> probably. >> probably. >> yeah, but try anyway. >> yeah, but try anyway. >> it's your what you. it's this thing about the initial spark you have to try and transmit that onto a two dimensional surface . that so that it's surface. that so that it's communicated to someone else because that's what you're doing. you're trying to show someone else how delighted you've been by something or how horrified or how. >> let's talk about some of your paintings, because this is one this is very typical of your work, i think. could you put it up so we can't see your face? thank you. just a little higher. >> thank you. thank you. >> thank you. thank you. >> now tell me so here, for instance, when i see something like this with a shadow and a little bit of translucent essence, i would go , oh, that's yummy. >> i can paint that. and also, you know , sunlight shining you know, sunlight shining through . this is actually through. this is actually a white bougainvillaea . and white bougainvillaea. and shadows on the ground. it gives a sense of warmth, of well—being and delight. >> this one took my breath away when i looked at that one. thank you, jonathan. right up, please . you, jonathan. right up, please. right up. no more. that's it. now, when i saw that , i had a now, when i saw that, i had a shiver down. my god. but what media is that? that is an etching. >> what i did, i was in india and i had a sketchbook which i filled with sketches on beaches. this particular beach was just the most exciting place. it's just outside. it's at a place called juhu, just outside bombay, mumbai . it's inked with bombay, mumbai. it's inked with blue at the top, darker in the middle. and i print these at home on my etching press. >> what have we got here? oh, thank you, jonathan. good i think. oh he is completely helpless . could you hold that helpless. could you hold that one right up so we can't see any of anything of you at all? tell me about this one. this is a drawing that i did in the studio or it's a pastel . or it's a pastel. >> it's done in pastel. people talk about pastel paintings. so it's a painting . but in pastel. it's a painting. but in pastel. and it's done from a from a series of photographs that i took in in the living room of a of a very good friend of ours in in tbilisi in georgia. oh in georgia. and i couldn't sit down and paint while i was in her flat. so i took some pictures. and then when i got home, i collaged them together. and my eye goes to her all the time. >> the colour there is very, very warm colour. is that what was it? >> the whole atmosphere. i'm trying to get the atmosphere of the flat, the clutter, the trans nuisance of the curtains, the glow ing of the standard lamp and so on. >> and that seems to be the lot. oh, no, we've got another one coming up which used to belong to a comedian called comedian john cleese, who very kindly bought this one because we need two people here. thank you, jonathan. tell tell me about this one. lift it up. so that it's horizontal down a bit. your your do you know what people people are not going to like you if you attack me. >> they love it when i attack you. no, they don't tan you shut up . up. >> right, lucy , this was the >> right, lucy, this was the local prison in somerset where i was given somerset, my dear. >> we're in somerset, and i was given the job of teaching an evening class , really? to the evening class, really? to the inmates. they came along, but they. they weren't that interested until i went one week and said, how about if we get one of you guys to sit here and i'll draw a portrait of you? oh i'll draw a portrait of you? oh i accumulated a portfolio of sketches which which i then took back home and i thought, i wonder if i could i'd sort of manipulate these individual sketches into to a give the effect of my class . oh. but it, effect of my class. oh. but it, it captured the absolute boredom of being in prison, although my class was in fact quite an entertaining sort of jolly atmosphere , for in reality , you atmosphere, for in reality, you know, i wasn't i was talking to somebody yesterday. >> it was telling me how enormously helpful it is for people in prison to get involved in artist stick pursuits, that it changes everything, which i don't understand why it does, but it seems as if it does very often . often. >> if you can learn a skill of any sort, it changes your outlook . but you know, if outlook. but you know, if perhaps if you can't read and write, but you can learn to draw or or paint or and there's unfortunately , there's just the unfortunately, there's just the funding has been cut massively from that sort of thing because the tories don't understand about anything like that . about anything like that. >> lucy that was just lovely and thank you so much for coming to talk to me. well thank you . talk to me. well thank you. i still feel that there's things that we've left out so far, so i've invited an old friend here, guy clark , to come and talk to guy clark, to come and talk to me. so we talk about some of them now, guy here is kind of my mentor because . because in 1992, mentor because. because in 1992, when 1997, i wrote the book and he wrote a book called hairbrain brain tortoise mind. he wrote a book called hairbrain brain tortoise mind . and almost brain tortoise mind. and almost all the thinking i've done about creativity since is based on that one book because you were suggesting that there's different at speeds of thinking and that they are suitable for different tasks. >> yes, in order to solve problems, you need to use the right tools for the job. yes, as in any kind of if you're a carpenter or a plumber, you have to use the right tools for the job. and our thinking tools vary in all kinds of ways. but when i was thinking when i was writing that book, i was thinking that they in speed . so they vary in their speed. so there's some of our tools are really fast. you know, if you're, you're having to respond very quickly , be very creative very quickly, be very creative in the moment like a tennis player or a cricket player, you don't have time to think you split second absolutely faster than thought. then then there are the kind of logical you know, the court of law, the learned lecture kinds of things which operate at the speed of thought, like edited by the way we're speaking now. you can't speed me up too much or or i stop making sense. yeah. and then there are other kinds of thinking that are slower than thought. you know, you can't slow thought down too, too much, or it stops making sense. other registers and it's very important to get the right register for the right job different kinds of problems need different kinds of problems need different speeds. and i think what i was thinking when i wrote the book was our culture in a way has sort of forgotten about the two outer sets of speeds, the two outer sets of speeds, the slow gear and the fast gear, if you like. and we want we try and do everything at the speed of thought. we try and put everything into that and we assume that speed of thought is assume that speed of thought is a good thing. we assume that it's a good thing and we assume that it's a ubiquitously good thing. good. it's good thing. but it's good. it's good for everything. it's like snake oil for mind, if you like , oil for the mind, if you like, right? you know, whereas if you're using the slow gear mode, what you call tortoise mind, you can deal with problems that you simply can't begin to solve. >> if you're in a faster way of thinking. yeah that's right. >> if you're in a court of law, thought the speed of thought works very well , it usually works very well, it usually comes out with a right answer. but if you're writing poetry or devising a new scientific theory , a lot of that work, it turns out, is done not at the conscious, deliberate rate, articulate level. einstein put it very well. he said the words of the language only come into my creative process at a very late stage. the actual creativity itself is done through thinking slowly and through thinking slowly and through what einstein called more or less clear images. through what einstein called more or less clear images . yes. more or less clear images. yes. so he's speaking. he's working in a different language . you in a different language. you could call it a language, but it's a visual language. and he said it's also a physical language , a language of physical language, a language of physical promptings is important. and only right at the last minute when he has to explain his thinking to other people. does it then have to get squeezed into the box of words, if you like? yes that's that's so interesting because the assumption is you've got to think fast. >> no one during my entire education, which was a good engush education, which was a good english education in a prep school, public school, nobody ever said to me, it's okay, lay on some subjects just to think about them. and then let your unconscious do the work. >> did a teacher ever ask you a question and you said, you know, it's a good question, sir. let me get back to you on that right . right. | me get back to you on that right . right. i remember. i must have been about 12 and i was sitting in a lesson . i been about 12 and i was sitting in a lesson. i can been about 12 and i was sitting in a lesson . i can remember it in a lesson. i can remember it very clearly. and i was gazing out of the window and the teacher said, what are you doing? claxton? and i said, i'm thinking, sir. he said, well, stop . stop it. >> yes, i was thought he assumed that i was wasting my time. of course. i mean, you had to be einstein to be able to sit there with your feet on your on your desk, on your desk at princeton university, and people think, oh, einstein's working well. there is most of us do that. you know, we're slacking. >> absolutely dream time. i mean, if you ask people when they get their best idea was it's not when they're right up against the deadline , when against the deadline, when they're in a court of law or something like that, it's i mean, when do you get your best ideas? often when you're falling asleep, when you're walking the dog, when you're in the shower , dog, when you're in the shower, in the shower, when you're not that you've been chewing over , that you've been chewing over, you've got to chew. >> chew it over first, right? yeah. and then you can leave it pretty for your unconscious yeah. and then you can leave it pr> it turns out it's often the case that particularly with things like scientific theorising, that you need to do a lot of hard work first, you need as it were, to exhaust the hare brain, the wretched hare that's that's running around all the time. you have to run it, run it to exhaust you. oh, that's interesting . then you go that's interesting. then you go and then as it were, you say, okay, unconscious over to you . okay, unconscious over to you. yeah.i okay, unconscious over to you. yeah. i think you see what i say in the book. >> in my little book, which i know you've read. yeah. what i say is you've got to get away from ordinary life . because i from ordinary life. because i looked at some research which had done on architects . and what had done on architects. and what what they discovered was the only difference between the creative ones and the uncreative onesis creative ones and the uncreative ones is that the creative ones could play. yes yes, yes. then i read a book by a dutch guy called homo ludens playing man . called homo ludens playing man. yes, yes. and he said, if you're going to play, you have to separate play from ordinary life. yes yes. >> you have to create. i think you are having read my book, you caused the coined the phrase tortoise enclosures. that's right. we have to protect space and time . and time. >> yeah, that's right. >> yeah, that's right. >> for the for the tortoise. otherwise the wretched hare just is bounding around all over the place. >> and the trouble is keeping the hare out. because any kind of interruption disturb holibobs the peace that you need just to sit and play. yeah sit there and play. yeah >> and it's very easy. i mean , >> and it's very easy. i mean, creativity is a delicate flower . creativity is a delicate flower. why are we so luddite in education? why do we resist having a slightly more sophisticated view of the mind, which embraces the need to do not only just invite, but to cultivate playful ness of mind the tolerance for making mistakes ? yeah. the example i mistakes? yeah. the example i was thinking of was a friend of mine, a wonderful primary school teacher who has very subtle, subtle, clever ways of detoxifying the idea of making mistakes . detoxifying the idea of making mistakes. four year olds arrive in school already , some of them in school already, some of them frightened of making mistakes. yes, they've learned to be good little boys and good little girls. yeah. and they have to get everything right first time or they feel stupid. >> it's crippling. >> it's crippling. >> so , becky, my friend becky >> so, becky, my friend becky talks to the kids about there's different she says there's different she says there's different kinds of mistakes . you different kinds of mistakes. you know, there are smart mistakes and then there are sloppy mistakes. a smart mistake was an idea you had based on the best information that you had at the time. and it just didn't turn out. but you learnt a lot from it. sloppy mistake is you didn't bother. yeah. now for children, that's a very liberating . the that's a very liberating. the idea that there is such it's almost like an oxymoron. the idea of a smart mistake. yeah. so then she's moved one stage further on. she has a big display in her classroom . display in her classroom. mistake of the week and her children queue up to have their smart mistakes acknowledged as the smartest mistake of the week. >> very smart. >> very smart. >> that's genius, isn't that? it's genius. >> but one of the curses, isn't it ? is this idea that thinking it? is this idea that thinking quickly is always better than thinking slowly. >> it's so this this idea again, it's very prevalent in business. the business world, which you, i think know better than i do. but somehow or other, the kind of people we want around here are people we want around here are people who are decisive , right? people who are decisive, right? yeah. and if you allow or encourage a culture of speediness and decisiveness , speediness and decisiveness, thatis speediness and decisiveness, that is a lot of people don't realise that that is stupid . realise that that is stupid. that's the word literally stupid. you're stifling intelligence and creativity in your organisation because everybody thinks they have to be a clever dick and whatever question, however complex, however novel, whatever question comes up , the smartest person in comes up, the smartest person in the room is the one who has the quickest answer. yes which is who is slick , stupid. who is slick, stupid. >> yeah. what do they call them? they call them the. the articulate, incompetent . articulate, incompetent. >> yes. >> yes. >> yes, absolutely right . >> yes, absolutely right. >> yes, absolutely right. >> yes. they suffer from premature articulation . an premature articulation. an that's a very good one. >> thank you . god bless you. if >> thank you. god bless you. if you have me. >> cheers . >> cheers. >> cheers. >> enjoy our water. it's a very best gb news water. >> very good. >> very good. >> only been used once . you you >> only been used once. you you see, when people are trying to create, they want a quiet place with no interruption . ones where with no interruption. ones where they can let their minds play and wander to wherever they want to go without any hurrying . and to go without any hurrying. and sometimes they feel confused because they've never been there before and they're okay with that. before and they're okay with that . executives and managers that. executives and managers are the polar opposite . they are the polar opposite. they want to control everything they demand clarity. they pride quick thinking and they like their employees to work hard and humourlessly and always in a hurry . so it's not surprising hurry. so it's not surprising that creatives and the suits don't get on. but we need them both because as the economist magazine once said about hollywood, if the creatives are in control, the place soon goes bankrupt and if the suits are in charge, then all the films are finished on time and under budget. but nobody wants to go and see them because they're so boring. so there has to be balance and that has to come from the top because they're the ones with the money and the power. >> are you finished yet? and what was that bit about execs being boring? >> that wasn't a sorry, i'll change that bit actually. well, what would you like me to say? what would you rather we'll sort it out in the edit. >> let's cut to the music now more energy this time . by half more energy this time. by half a b philosophically must ipso facto , half not be, but half the facto, half not be, but half the b has got to be v xvii it's entity you see. >> but can a b be said to be or not to be an entire b when half the b is not a b due to some ancient injury. the b is not a b due to some ancient injury . singing a la dee ancient injury. singing a la dee dee. one two, three and eight. >> the half of me a, b, c, d, e, f, g— >> the half of me a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h, the half of b is this wretched demi b off asleep upon my knee. >> some freak from a menagerie. no it's eric b filium a philly d eric hoffer b ho ho ho z. >> the half of me . >> the half of me. >> the half of me. >> i love this hive employee bisected axis mentally. one summer after afternoon by me . i summer after afternoon by me. i love him to gnarly loss in the early semicon . only the end early semicon. only the end. next time on the dinosaur i. >> i see these you know trans women are real women. no, you're not. okay, that's the bottom line . line. >> i was married to a therapist. >> i was married to a therapist. >> what? and you survived? ha ha. well, she calls me 20 million. >> i want to know what you really feel about woke . really feel about woke. >> i. i hate it. i'm michel jubrey, and i'm not here to tell you what to think. >> i'd much rather hear what you have to say , sir. send in your have to say, sir. send in your opinions to gb views gb news. com keep them clean and you never know . i might com keep them clean and you never know. i might read com keep them clean and you never k
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