like they said to eric sterling, do we even want them to live? the russian drugs are come out the most terrible dead eyed people i've ever met. they have banned needle exchange effectively because they wanted the addictive population of russia to die. charging their hiv crisis, of course, and killing a lot of them. it satisfied that objection because i think we are satisfied that. many people watching this. the more complicated argument to engage with, i think that you're both done it brilliantly is, you know, the recovery community objections to harm reduction. you came across some of them. how did you encounter them? can you talk a little bit about that? >> it was really polarized. i mean, people were saying it was either recovery -- and, i am even putting that in quotes. i think it can be a larger thing thing getting off of drugs. it is either recovery and abstinence or it is harm reduction. that is how it was framed out there. those of us in harm reduction were vilified. it was almost as if people were imagining we were snapping people in rec