bill recounts the story of the cia analyst ernie olney who in the 1970s saw religion as being very important and iran saying we've got to look at this, we've got trouble on the horizon. but all of his colleagues ridiculed him and called him mullah ernie. so my question is, how much in u.s. foreign policy as we saw in the attitude toward mubarak maybe hanging on too long and so forth, how much is u.s. foreign policy shaped by a kind of widely shared secularism in the u.s. foreign policy establishment. a secularism which says either religion is irrational or irrelevant. how much is that still true today? >> steve, you want to take first crack. >> we'll try to make our answers briefer. there is, and elliott alluded to this. what is secularism. i had a conversation with condi rice. i said do you consider yourself a secularist. she said no, i'm a religious person. so what do we mean by secularism. the french have a view, the state has to sit on to religion to make sure religion does not intrude into public life. a kind of secularism i don't buy. i don't think our country buys. i think the best on