man: eskom is a 100% state-owned company, so the government owns eskom. eskom does support, you know, like, the coal industry. the big portion of our energy generation is based, you know, like, on coal. there's been-- it's called a [indistinct] symbiotic relationship between the coal-mining industry and eskom. let me put it this way: about 70% of the energy requirement in south africa are met through coal. i think, uh, the simple fact is that we've got it, it's in abundance. we still have probab 200 more years of coal, you know, like, in the ground. woman: is it immoral to open yet another one in an area like highveld that's clearly got extraordinary levels of pollution on a local level? mashigo: yeah, what you need to realize, as i mention, i mean, on average over the past 10 years, coal production in south africa has remained fairly stable, between 250 and 260 million tons per annum. as in when you open new mines, other mines are closing down. man: coal, for the last hundred years or so, has really powered the economy. it was critical to the industriali

so, for example, when you have a large, state—owned enterprise like eskom, what should the relationshipate. in many developing parts of the world, the problem is also with the public institutions themselves. or in italy, our public bank was part of the problem just giving out hand—outs, subsidies, guarantees... right. ..with no purpose in mind. so what i'm interested in in these kinds of countries is to say, if you do have, for example, a public bank, a public fund, which many developing countries have, we need to build conditionality within those public funds so you don'tjust give out money, it's conditional on, for example, a green, sustainable growth path. and what happens if even in the most sort of proactive and strategic governments, civil servants, officials make the wrong call, get things wrong? i mean, you know, for example, just a couple off the top of my head. you could argue that the us government, under nixon, spent billions in a war on cancer, which they completely failed to win. it was misguided. yeah. right now, i believe you've offered advice to the german government, a