david copperfield the book we've been talking about he moves from a kind of prissy, milk toast eudora to agnesto be agnes's and lover you must become everything in you to be. you are summonsed to full growth by a woman like that. there's nothing amelia like about agnes. >> i disagree with what john is saying about the loose baggy monster thing because the formal problems of dickens are very much created by the serial form because you're having to produce these books in this partial stage. i think actually it's remarkable how architected they are. considering the scale of these books and the way in which they're written. of course dickens was obsessive about tying up all the loose ends. at the end of the book he'll tell you what happens to every character in later life including their pets. he had a great desire to make the thing shapely. >> i wouldn't argue the form of the novel with salman rushdie. >> charlie: on that note, i thank you all. thank you, john. thank you, joe. thank you, simon. thank you, robert. a pleasure. >> thank thank you. charlie: an hour about charles dickens. charles dick