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i'm evan mcmullen.e mike lee. >> a former cia officer who ran as an anti-trump independent in 2016 once again stepping into the political arena looking to unseat utah senator mike lee at a time when the republican party is trying to purge itself of any and all critics of the disgraced expresident, donald trump, while hoping to seize control of the congress in the mid terms, mcmullen is running as an independent. he is taking on one of trump's biggest and closest allies in congress, one who explored claims of election fraud and found them to be completely baseless. quote, if mcmullen is elected it could pose the most refintive rebuke to date to trump's republican party. joining our conversation, jackie alameni of the "washington post" and author of the early 202 newsletter. steve is still here. jackie, mike lee seems to have gone mike lee's brand. there seemed to be a point where mike lee was still trying to be a senator from utah. he went all in with trump and the bogus election conspiracies that bill b

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and evan mcmullen challenged mike lee as an independent. aept trump republican. partisans see these moves as naive and insane. proponents see the opportunity for constructive disruption. so let's dig into the data and see who is right. record 62% of americans say there is a need for a third party now, according to gap all. 33% say the two parties are doing an adequate job. and the rise of independent voters the past two decades. as of last month, 41% of americans identify as independent compared to 29% for republicans and democrats alike. you've got to go back to 2004 to find a sustained period where there were fewer independents than republicans or democrats. and not coincidentally, the two parties have only gotten more polarized since that time. so why hasn't a viable third party materialized? well, a big part of the problem is structural. while the constitution does not mention political parties, george washington was our only independent president to date. the u.s. doesn't have a parliamentary system. moreover, state laws make getting o

you mentioned my good friend evan mcmullen who founded ram with me and is running for senate againsthitman and i are calling coalition campaigning. not coalition government, not running a coalition government with the democrats, but coalition campaigning and teaming up with them to go win races that otherwise would be unwinnable. i think that test in this cycle in the midterms is going to help us determine whether we can do something like that on a bigger scale in 2024. and i'll say this, if donald trump is the nominee of the republican party, i actually do think in 2024, you will see the greatest viability for a third party candidate that we've ever seen in american politics, and so we'll be trying to build the foundation for that if it's needed. >> i thank you for what you've written and for the great thought that you're putting into this. i leave you with another line from the op-ed that the two of you have written. a compact between the center right and the left may seem like an unnatural fit. but in the battle for the soul of the american political system, we cannot retreat to o

other places we're going to suggest that progressives, patriotic progressives, support folks like evan mcmullenthat sort of coalition campaigning is what we're trying to do and it did work to beat donald trump and we've got to stick to that model. >> i hope it works, miles. it's worked in other places. i wonder if you can tell me anything about the campaign strategy, how much money you have, political ads, tell me what it looks like. >> yeah, well, look, right now, we're trying to raise a war chest. we're trying to raise a $15 million to $20 million war chest to target towards key congressional races and these are races that i would call tip cases. it's not every race in the country. it's the races that we think can decide majorities in the house and in the senate. now, why is that important or significant for a group of republicans to do? because what we're saying is kevin mccarthy should not be the speaker of the house of representatives. if he is, it will become a haunted house, and that's one of the big things that we're trying to prevent. so, we're playing in races where we think we can ma

edward mcmullen is running for a utah senate seat in 2022, also a former cia officer. before we get to the politics, evani want to get to the cia sources. in china a decade ago, many were exposed and killed, frankly, by beijing. that was the result of a brief. i wonder, do we know, is it just bad practice that is leading to the loss of these acgents, a breach, a combination of those things? >> it could be a combination of those things. i would guess the issue is a broader matter because i think we're seeing this across the agency based on this report, and that is that, look, we've been fighting terrorists and insurgents in war zones and other hostile environments for 20 years. that means there are a lot of officers who entered the agency and who have only or largely had just that experience, and in those environments, what happens is the ci risk goes down, the counterintelligence risk. there are not -- you're not working against a foreign government that has technology and human resources and so many things to use against you, to discover you and stop your operations. you're working against a terrorist o