as i'm sure the rest of the original seven, we haddinr in at his house one night with him and everhart reese. then we drove out to a little hillside where they built their own observatory, and we took a look at the moon through a telescope which was -- here you are with a great rocket scientist and he's showing you what the moon looks like through a telescope. >> it seems strange to the public at large, bob gill ruth is kind of lost in limbo and vonn brom stands in mind as one of the prime movers. i wonder what your reaction would be of that evaluation? >> i think that's true. i think that's true. i think gill ruth's entire life was -- had been and was dedicated to aviation and space. and he basically was an engineer. i think that perhaps von braun obviously was an engineer, but i think vonn brawn had been involved in political as specs over in germany where maybe it was a matter of survival. i think he dealt with the public more easily than gill ruth did. it came more naturally to him. and as a result, i think that in the final analysis, the general public knew more about vonn brawn than th