we learn a lot in the last month or two about facebook and russia facebook has said they learn a bunch of ads placed during the election were placed by russian outfits under anonymous accounts and they were politically divisive ads, not necessarily aimed at one candidate or another but just aim at sowing divisiveness on charged topics. >> host: why did facebook not seem to know who was placing these ads? >> guest: it's not totally clear why facebook didn't do more due diligence on these accounts. the ads were brought in rubles. there are laws that say foreigners cap by ooh lex ads about apparently -- election ads and apparently these slipped through and because that are were under fake identities maybe the didn't find them until recently. >> host: what i learned in your reporting is that these are basically self-service ad placements. correct? there's not necessary lay human involved. >> guest: yeah. i mean, in the course modify reporting i've bought ads on facebook several times, and it's really just kind of an online menu. you go in, put down what you want, bunch of dropdown menus ha

facebook is feeling pressure. i mean, sheryl, i think, was pretty clear about that when she came to washington. she was pretty explicit saying, look, we know we need to do better, we're trying to do better, and i think the implicit message was, you know, don't regulate us, we're going to take care of it ourselves, right? and that's what companies do when they feel the pressure. they step up their self-regulation promises. and we'll see, you know, if they pull it off. i think it's a huge lift really. i mean, this is a gigantic company, and it's just not clear what kind of oversight mechanisms they have right now. but, you know, they aren't catching these things that they say that they need to catch. and so she mentioned they're investing in technology, they're investing in hiring tons of more people. so, you know, we'll see if that's enough to keep washington at bay. >> host: is there a role for the federal election commission in all of this? >> guest: well, the federal election commission a i think, a couple roles

a lot about alked acebook and we talked to julia angwin about facebook but this is not just facebook's issue, is it? david: it's not. it's obviously partially a google issue. google is the other big player ad market.ne they said they found some ads associated with this effort. exposure because facebook has this possibility for something to go viral. go viral.n that's not how google works. twitter has some problems with bots and the potential russian operations on their platform. just today we saw a story that outbrain, which is a big advertising content referral is also looking into these questions. so certainly it's one that consumes the entire industry. fcc and ll we see the the fec at this hearing or perhaps some hearings at those commissions as well? david: the fcc, federal election ommission is doing some work around looking at whether or not there should be different disclosure requirements for ads.al one of the things that make this so complicated is there is not really a clear single regulator google and s like facebook and twitter. so actually the fcc doesn't have the ads so i

we have learned a lot in the last month or two about facebook and russia, especially facebook has said a bunch of ads placed during the election were placed by russian outfits under anonymous accounts and they were politically divisive ads, not necessarily aimed at one candidate or another, but just aimed at sowing divisiveness on some really charged topic. >> why did facebook not seem to know who was placing these ads. >> it's not totally clear why facebook didn't do more due diligence on these accounts, the ads were bought in ruble, there are laws that say foreigners can't buy election ads, but apparently they slipped through and because they were under some sort of fake identities, maybe they didn't find them until recently. >> now what i learned in your reporting is that these are basically self-service ad placements, correct? does not necessarily a human involved. >> in the course of my reporting, i've buy ads on facebook several times and it's just kind of an online menu. you go in, you put down what you want, you go to drop-down menus and you click by. it's very easy. then you g

facebook page by facebook page, twitter account by twitter account. these were american companies that were used as the scene of a fairly significant crime. what explains their lack of urgency to even figure this stuff out, let alone make any kind of public disclosure that would help us see what russia did? and now that google is admitting this much of it, too, is that likely to change any of those? joining us is elizabeth. she's a silicon valley correspondent for "the washington post." she broke the story today on google admitting that russian agents bought ads on google platform. thank you for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> let me ask you if google changes the game. i feel like i'm seeing the same pattern to admit this belatedly, to not being doing deep analysis of what happened and to be playing it down. >> i have to correct you. google actually didn't admit it. we found that out from our own sources. the comment they've given us have been quite vague. they haven't admitted it. the question of why have they been like this, why have they ha

i mean you know almost definitely you had right after the election you had facebook c.e.o. say it was pretty crazy that facebook fake news had any impact on the election and now they've kind of walked back that statement but only because of the mounting media attention and the mounting political attention otherwise they would they want to just push this under the carpet they don't have to deal with this this is complicated is it difficult is it expensive there's no easy way out of this there's no easy way to do this they just want to increase profits they want to increase the amount of articles people share it prefer rable to them but people share content they like and put them into narrow narrow groups because they can target them with narrowing our ads they don't want to have to deal with this and they're only dealing with it because of media attention again and again and again so is that suggested why it why companies such as google and facebook don't appear to act quickly and else when when journalists or even just. other users flag articles as big fake all delicious i

i'm proud of what facebook has done. e we went to a $15 minimum wage for anyone who is a contractor of size to any vender we have. and we also made sure people got paid leave. bereavement leave is really important. i suffered a terrible loss and i know what that is. facebook had good policies before we gave ten days for immediate family. now we went to 20 days. only 60% of u.s. workers get any time off for bereavement. and often it's only a few days. when you lose an immediate family member, people need more time. i'm really excited by what i see as people starting to do that. bank of america announced this week with its 200,000 employees they were going to 20 days. survey monkey, air b and b, i think we need to do better for the people who work for us. what companies need to understand is this is not a trade off. people shouldn't choose between being a great employee and a mother, sister, wife, father. but if we invest in people, they invest in us. this stuff is good for everyone. >> who are some strong women you think

page facebook dot com forward slash a.j. inside story and you can also join the conversation on twitter at a.j. inside story from me adrian figure and the whole team here in doha thanks for watching i'll see you get by for that. in the heart of the amazon the bolivian family has put their lives in peril to harvest brazil nuts. which can sing the congo to the capital is an even more dangerous challenge. risking a tool in the libya. at this time on al-jazeera. and under pointed well on. u.s. and british companies have announced the biggest discovery of natural gas in west africa but what to do with these untapped natural resources is already a source of heated debate nothing much has changed they still spend most of their days looking forward to for the dry river beds like this one five years on the syrians still feel battered or even those who managed to escape their country haven't truly been able to escape the war. her waves the rain forests of the state and we continue on our current way we won't have her race within twent

identified by facebook. today, or rt, as it's sometimes called, spent approximately 274,000 targeting u.s. markets. 2016 russian agents published more than 131,000 messages on twitter. google found tens of thousands of ads by russian accounts that use youtube or google. russian agents uploaded about 1,000 videos on youtube. so questions to each of you and a short answer on these two questions i'm going to put together. to each company, starting with mr. stretch, have you completed internal investigations to identify all accounts, advertisements and posts with connections to russia that purchase ads in the lead up to the 2016 election? and if not, what is the time line for completion? >> senator, as i stated in my testimony, the investigation continues. and we expect to keep the committee up to date on any further discoveries. >> okay. >> the same goes for twitter. we are continuing to work with your staff on both -- our relevant period was september 1st and november 15th. we're working with our staff on othe

do facebook and facebook messenger have some catching up to do here?we are having a very different approach here because the current experience that you have with messenger that suggests things you want to do in conversation is really popping up at the right time, and so as a result, we tend to not disappoint when we have an intent that you want to complete because we only surface suggestions when we feel pretty confident that this is what you want to do. the model that we have been working on right now is the one that we have been talking about with suggestions and conversations, and we are continuing to invest in bringing a more full-fledged assistant to market. we have been working on it for a while. but we really want to shift something that is valuable and will not let people down. it is really important. we do not want to rush to market. we want to get it right. once we get it right, we will ship it to the now 1.3 billion people on messenger and counting. emily: facebook, along with google and twitter, will be speaking before the house intelligen

to the election and if facebook has not, will facebook focus on producing those ads? mr. stretch: yes, senator. we have produced everything that we've identified that is the product of what we call coordinated inauthentic activity from facebook and we are continuing to investigate and we commit to keep the committee up-to-date on any further progress in our investigation. senator grassley: so that would include all ads placed from russian sources? mr. stretch: all ads from russian sources that -- senator grassley: as well as others? mr. stretch: that are inauthentic and directed at these political issues. there are many advertisements cross-border for legitimate purposes that we have not produced. senator grassley: overall facebook identified more than 3,000 ad purchases worth $100,000 during the 2016 election that had links to russia, russian agents posted messages that reached 126 million users. the ads, accounts and posts that facebook found attempted to amplify divisive political issues across the political spectrum. twitter identified around 200 accounts linked t

ads, saying maybe facebook should run this as a facebook targeted ad on facebook the debate will likely grow on november 1st, when twitter and google have been scheduled to testify. >> julia, thank you. julia boorstin in los angeles. roger mcnamee says there are even bigger problems awaiting facebook roger, great to see you again. >> melissa, always a pleasure to be on "fast money." >> you got fast company on fast money here, roger. in terms of the bigger problems facing facebook, what could they be this seems pretty bad. >> the problem here, melissa, we don't yet know the dimensions of the result infiltration of the facebook platform. what we already know is that it was huge, it was very deep it involved not just facebook but also twitter, reddit, fortune, a bunch of other things in a highly coordinated program that began well before the election campaign began. so they were doing things like supporting secessionist movements in texas and california they were trying to cause essentially anger to increase on both sides of black lives matter they were organizing things against immigrants

more than half of facebook users say they get their news from facebook. stuff, who has it right? >> sadly conservatives are getting a shaft from facebook and you see it on conservative websites, postings on facebook very difficult to do. they've been cracking down on it. this is not extreme stuff, this is conservative stuff so there's bias there and zuckerberg ought to address it because he and other big tech companies are going to face more and more political pressures the bigger they get. so, heed the cries of conservatives. david: bruce, here is what the cry from president trump is, and i'm quoting a tweet. facebook was always anti-trump. the networks were always anti-trump, hence fake news, new york times apologized and washington post were anti-trump. collusion? question mark. what say you? >> oh, my goodness, i don't know where to begin here. he's such a whiner. i need a breath here. he's such a whiner. he had passes and showed all the rallies during the campaign. and he's president of the united states. come on, be president. david: but, rich, it's

i don't want this were to appear in a comment will be deleted from the facebook page from the facebook page and. the two hundred sixty year is a month converse sario will moderate ten thousand comments social books are a particular problem these look like followers or accounts but generate messages using algorithms because they can develop into convincing internet personas they can actually shape public opinion phenomenon like social bought the sorry you had its work cut out for it it's a fake account always be fake accounts and content that turns out to be fake news. so in that sense i believe that converse are you has a future to confess. what's true and what's said lie with him her liberation of fake news on social media and a growing number of startups have found a nice cleaning up the internet. let's talk about lies hate and slander with alexander from eco the association of the internet industry now you could board nate berlin office and you have an actual complaints office there what sort of complaints do you get on a daily basis you know last you've received about two hundred f

facebook has 150. you said hundreds. >> no, we have hundreds across user services and trust and safety looking at issues of content on the platform. >> what about you? >> google has thousands of people. there is many different products and different teams work on them. but internally we'll have thousands of people working on them. we also get a good deal of leads on content that we need to review for whether it's appropriate or not that come from outside the company as well. >> you have thousands of people just focused on the content? >> on various types of content. >> that mr. stretch indicated he has at facebook? you have thousands of people dedicated? >> we have thousands of people dedicated to make sure the content across our -- remember, google has many different properties within it. but yes, the answer is we have thousands that look at content that has been reported to us as inappropriate. >> so in view of that, mr. stretch, do you think 150 people is enough people? >> senator, to be clear, the

facebook -- facebook, amazon, google are so big and creative and powerful that they could stymie competitionlways difficult to deal with that. jeff bezos has a wonderful line that steve jobs said as well is that you should not be access the competitors, you should be assessed with your customers and the rest will follow. i think that is what snap will do. keep innovating -- do you see mark zuckerberg and evan spiegel -- >> i think they have a real feel for what users want. i think -- i find evan spiegel philosophical and a great deal of leadership. toledo public company -- to lead -- steve jobsny crit is a great product but having -- steve jobs created a great product but had trouble in 1985 leading a company. emily: the spread of fake news, going before congress, how serious is this question mark >> it is very serious. was i first went online, it many years ago. up,first words that came you own your own words. you have to take responsibility for what you said. -- we saw that again happening in las vegas. i think the time has come where you can no longer say it is not our responsibility. we

dougal, twitter and facebook will fear it —— appear and find —— facebook will fear it —— appear and findll fear it —— appear and find —— in front of senate committees including the one investigating russian meddling in the american democratic process. one person who does not feel the issue is worth talking about at all is president trump himself. what the tech companies are really afraid of is more regulation. several high profile politicians have drawn on what they call the honours at active. a proposed law that will demand more transparency and greater restriction on online advertising. the companies would rather regulate themselves, and say they have been trying their hardest to show they have in taking the situation seriously. twitter has named —— ba ntu seriously. twitter has named —— bantu major russian media organisations. facebook has said it will make it clear who was purchasing ads and for what purpose. but that is not all tech companies are doing to try and gain influence in the capital. betweenjuly and september this year, apple, amazon, google, facebook and microsoft spent $

do you believe that facebook and google have accumulated too much power they're too big. no no i don't i mean i think a lot of these kinds are things are really overblown i mean people talk about this sort of thing people sometimes forget that apple's profit is still slightly higher than facebook's revenues. you know there's a lot of different things going on in the world. i think the internet is still a very dynamic place. you know media owners of all kinds of always been quite powerful. if i have to trust the world to. donald trump or mark zuckerberg i know which way i'm going with no would you vote for mark zuckerberg come twenty twenty. it's a good question i might do because i never thought of running for office yourself hope he doesn't run. not for more than about five seconds it sounds like a horrific sort of way to engage and being in the public eye at all is always slightly weird and awkward wouldn't want to invite that abuse jimmy well thanks for joining me on that front. great thank you. nice armor has been dubbed the palestinian garny a prominent human rights

head of growth for facebook and asked him if we should expect facebook to have known something like thisld happen. i want your take check it out >> you know, the fundamental thing i want to make sure to everybody is technology by design is deterministic in the following way, which is that whatever can be done and whatever is possible will be done and what we need to do is have the moral and ethical discussions around how we prevent the broad implications of how technology can be used not just in positive ways but in ways that are poorly understood. >> are you saying it's impossible to anticipate everything. >> absolutely. >> so if it's impossible to anticipate everything, roger, what should we expect them to do >> i think, john, both you and chamath make a really important point, which is it is impossible to anticipate. that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. the thing is we now know a whole set of failure modes they didn't anticipate i am quite certain it never occurred to facebook that a foreign country was going to come in and mess with their elections. i'm certain they didn't anticipate

facebook is starting to label.es, as well, they will start new labels that identify the source of political ads. they will interest that they are putting more human editors on the problem. scarlet: the check hearing has begun. we are listening to the chairman of the committee, lindsey graham, speaking. >> i doubt i would be here if it were not for social media, to be honest. the president of the united states saying that, from his point of view, social media was an invaluable tool to help him win an election. i would dare say that every politician up here today asking questions uses your service, and we find it invaluable to communicate and get our message out. use it and the president music, millions of americans use your technology to share the first step of a grandchild, to doug about good and bad things in our use livesm and i would like to say to all of you that you have enriched america. we have more information available to us because of what you do. we can find an answer to almost any question. we can share

to do think that facebook and facebook messenger have some catching up to do?i think we are having a very different approach here. the current experience you have is that they suggest things that you want to do based off of conversation, and it is really popping up at the right time. our results tend not to disappoint when you have an intent you want to complete. we only surface suggestions when we feel confident that this is what you want to do. the model we have been working on right now is the model we have been talking about with suggestions in conversations, and we are continuing to invest in bringing a more full-fledged assistant to market. we have been really working on it for a while. we really want to ship something that is valuable and will not let people down. we do not want to rush to market. we will get it right, and then once we get it right, we will ship it to the 1.3 billion people on messenger and counting. emily: facebook along with google and twitter will speak before the house intelligence committee about russian meddling on the platforms. w

the problem with facebook is facebook.t they have suggested is cosmetic. what they suggested might work in a fairly controlled test environment like germany, which has deep republican roots and has rules against hate speech and what they did in germany is not a good test for what will happen and has happened in miramar and has in india. what is going to happen in the philippines. that's where facebook is doing the biggest damage, not in the united states. >> so that -- back -- i want to talk about the idea about a -- at nbc news when we publish a thing it goes through standards. we just got a platform. you published. like at a certain point you can't disengage from the stuff people are putting on your platform. >> right. i mean, there has to be responsibility taken at some point. this is why it's interesting to hear kara bring up microsoft. it will kill us and anti trust lawsuit. the power of the people and the form of government was brought to bear against a company that has grown too big. we don't have a clear sense of e

we know that facebook has shared information with google. that the development of fake news and propaganda, facebook and google kind of playoff each other. the stories that do really well on facebook tend to do really well on google search. the tweets that google has an agreement to index certain tweets, so there are a lot of viral tweets that may appear top of search results. congress may be looking at the interchange there. we don't know if they will plumb the depths of google's fairly expansive online advertising network. we don't have a lot of information right now. emily: we know that in the aftermath of the las vegas shooting that fake news and misinformation ricocheted across the internet. google especially apologized for it, blamed it on the algorithm. are you aware of any internal initiatives underway to make sure things like that don't happen in the future? reporter: they have put in some protocols. that was a really fascinating issue because the search term was around a particular name whose name was not in any news prior to that.

problem, it's a facebook in society problem, so, you know, facebook is kind of the biggest driver of news and that affects how media, you know, that affects the kinds of stories that media cover the kind of effect that facebook has on the rest of the media is a much bigger problem and it's hard to see how facebook itself can solve that that was sort of going to be the biggest problem, what do you do with the free speech concerns, what do you do with how media react to facebook, and that's like a thorny problem that i don't know if facebook or anyone can solve in the short term. >> henry, i'm not so sure that this is going to be simple, even on the front end of it we talk a lot about political advertising. this comes down to me it seems to attribution do we understand where people are and who people are that are placing all kinds of advertising and then beyond that, this issue of shadow influence. are we clear all of the ways that you can use money to influence what people see on facebook and it seemed up to this point part of the way facebook has grown is by making that a little bit

when you're on facebook, you can get the impression that everyone agrees with you because the thing facebookou are all things that you like or at least they think you like. i sit, the problem here is for an individual at any moment, there could be millions of different things to show us. if the 10 or 20 to put in your newsfeed that are not there because they make you smarter or healthier happier. they are there because they maximize facebook's profit. it is maximized by appealing to anger, fear, and deep emotions and if you think about were ther and anger basis of trump getting elected. they were the basis of brexit happening in the u.k. they were the basis of the alt-right movement in germany and france having had some edges of the boat -- high percentages of the vote. same: let me ask the question about twitter. what responsibility does twitter tbear? roger: i would argue there were a group of platforms the russians used together. 4chan readstart on which is a place where angry people hang out. after they blew up they went on facebook. they did other things on google to affect way people g

well i think that's an abuse of the monopoly powers on facebook and the all the major u.s. internet companies basically trying to do all the experimenting with this to see if they can use the monopoly power to increase their profits but also more sinisterly they're in there working with the u.s. intelligence services to censor the news or think it's a very very worrying development from a business point of view they martin they would say look we charge our advertisers why can't we choose to have to charge news outlets to. well i think that there is not really a competitive market but with what's developed is we've now got private monopoly power developing here which ought to be regulated and i think there's actually calls from across the spectrum in the u.s. for internet complicity treated like utilities and they're either got to be run by the government or the got to be regulated by the government to ensure that a competitive market exists one of the other sinister things they're doing is de monetizing people they don't like so certain contents for example look radomski wh

the 1.3 billion people on facebook every day, that doesn't make facebook a bad company, but they haveibility. emily: how do we prevent this from happening? do we rely on these companies? do we rely on government regulations? roger: we can't count on the companies. it has been public pressure that has brought these very small changes. appetite for heavy government regulation. we've been in a mode where we are deregulating. this has to be public pressure. consumers and employees of these companies have to work together to say, enough is enough. facebook, google, you have won. you have achieved these massive monopolies. there's nobody coming to take it away. it is time to recognize that you need to cooperate with everybody and find ways to open source the investigations so that we can have millions of eyes looking to try to prevent our system from being sabotaged. man who was the guy who was in egypt during the arab spring. his whole hypothesis is that we can have the whole world helping protect democracy. emily: did he work at google? quora.kee he worked at what we need to do is get eve

you had facebook up 4%, apple up 3.5% facebook is up 54% year to date. amazon is up 46% year to date. amazon really played cantch-up t the rest alibaba up 100%. this is one that i'm focused on next week, along with facebook and apple. >> is the setup too difficult for these stocks at this point >> we were listening to styx at the opening of the show. facebook's report was unbelievable if you think about two or three-quarters back, we were very concerned about their ad growth that is very much behind them. they've got new products, this graph search thing, then the monetization the long term monetization is embedded in this space i think facebook can move higher at least relative to that peer group. >> i think facebook can go a little bit higher depending on the earnings the problem is it did run on the heels of all these names today so it got a little bit of a lift into the earnings. i don't know if it's got that much more juice to go a lot higher unless they blow it out, i don't think it goes a lot higher when you look at tech and then, what's the incen

facebook has shared them with congress.s of their influence, facebook estimates that they were seen by about 126 million people before and after november's poll. tech firms are concerned about the prospect of new regulation, and in the last week or so both twitter and facebook said they will improve advertising transparency, especially when it comes to political ads. some leading senators are proposing the honest ads act, to regulate online ad sales for sites with more than 50 million us visitors each month. technology correspondent rory cellan—jones is with me. sally went through the numbers. as the story has developed, they interchange. we heard 3000 and 80,000. what is important today is until now we have been hearing about paid advertising on these different platforms, facebook, twitter and google. this time we are hearing about free content. that is reaching far more people. accounts that no turn out to be from a particular russian organisation spreading gci’oss russian organisation spreading across the internet. the w

and these were ads on facebook? >> parscale: facebook, we did them on twitter, google search, other platforms. facebook was the 500-pound gorilla, 80% of the budget kind of thing. >> stahl: facebook's advertising technology helped president obama in 2012, but today facebook offers something far more precise and sophisticated. while the president recently tweeted that "facebook was always anti-trump" parscale relied heavily on the company, particularly on its cutting-edge targeting tools. one of the best things facebook did for you, i heard, was penetrate the rural vote. is that correct? >> parscale: yeah. so facebook now lets you get to places and places possibly that you would never go with tv ads. now, i can find, you know, 15 people in the florida panhandle that i would never buy a tv commercial for. and we took opportunities that i think the other side didn't. >> stahl: like what? >> parscale: well, we had our-- their staff embedded inside our offices. >> stahl: what?? >> parscale: yeah, facebook employees would

we are already a top provider to facebook.hallenge is it is not making the money yet. we have huge scale and great name recognition and brand awareness, but now we have to take it. we are working with facebook and snap on how we really monetize that. emily: speaking about the need to make money, there is some speculation about job cuts coming with the scripps acquisition. how many jobs? what are you working through? david: we look at it has two different things. yes, there will be significant synergy. we stated about $350 million. we think it could be more than that. the idea is we have two great companies that do quality content. when we put it together in the u.s. alone, we will have more than 20% of viewership on cable. we have five of the top six or seven women's networks. id and own and tlc and hgtv and food. but where they are going to invest more is content and go directly to the consumer. we really view the company if we close on this acquisition or when we do as being a breaking it in half. the right side is growth, o

this is bloomberg. ♪ facebook says -- emily: facebook says it has had success fighting fake news.launched an effort to combat fake news with new things. while the right wing alternative for germany made historic gains in the election, they said in a blog post that these "actions did not eliminate misinformation entirely in the the election, it did make it harder to spread." the level of false news was low. sticking with facebook, president trump is taking aim at the social network, saying they were always anti-trump. the networks were also anti-trump. the tweet comes after facebook reveals will turn over the 3000 political ads that were bought with russian money in the presidential campaign. how will it affect facebook's push to attract advertisers as it broadens content offerings? ceo of group nine, and jerry who covers media for bloomberg weighs in. gerry: facebook is making an aggressive push to take away advertising dollars from tv networks. they just launched facebook watch, and there are a lot of online publishers that are producing content for that. that is where this is bi

a facebook account, the ad itself, and a credit card.ebook's website will hold your hand to the rest to self-serving advertising. let's say you haven't you want to show to gun owners in pennsylvania. civil. -- simple. facebook and reroute the ads of anyone that has posted pages about gun ownership using target at space on race, political affiliation, pretty much anything. facebook and target specific demographic groups because it has so much information on its thes, the articles quick on, the pages that follow, what they like, all for targeting advertisers. there is information users provide themselves like what .choo the ads are meant to spur controversy over immigration, race relations, gun rights, and more. facebook says that before as our distribution, they are sent for review, but it is a mostly automatic process that does not block commercial ads based on content, which means the russians were able to run thousands of ads with actually andrrect information inflammatory political speech, which facebook users could not tell came from