pamela sanfilippo: well, he talks about when this financial failure happens with ferdinand ward where ward comes to ulysses junior, and then to grant himself and says, you know, "the bank is in a little bit of a financial strait. can you borrow some money? and we just need to get through the next few days." and grant accepts that. borrows $150,000 from william vanderbilt, and ferdinand ward absconds with the money to canada and the fortune is lost. grant says that he doesn't know if he'll be able to trust anyone ever again. susan swain: well, we have them already in their post white house years, and we haven't talked about their leaving the white house. people watching should know this, but of course at the time there were no restrictions on running for a third term. william seale: third term, yeah. susan swain: did the grants wish to seek a third term in office? william seale: no, he didn't. but there were many people who wanted him to, and she did. and so when he declined it, he didn't tell her. he gave the letter to them without telling her, and she'd begun to be suspicious. they w