. >> do you consider yourself more analogous to frank aventail junior and you do to people understanding that a hacker is, like from what we see in movies, hackers or sneakers, do you think that is more of what you do is suppose to like what frank aventail junior is doing? >> when i was doing the attacks, was a hybrid of social engineering and technical attacks. for example, let's say to take collects way to get into a large company and is looking for a piece of code because if i got access to the code, i could figure out how to break into the operating system and i would use social engineering to find out what server the code i was interested in was on. it would be much faster than me sitting on the networks for a month looking for it. they basically use social engineering and technical exploitation. but we focus for the social engineering side because we thought it was more interesting. and frank abigail reviewed the book and a light day. he actually called me a master social engineer. i don't know what this means in this category, but i guess it to complement. so i was very happy that