so once upon a time, the first novel, frank hoffman, the station chief just ordered something and it would happen. >> across the line, you didn't care. that was through interestingly about the real-life operations in which that novel is based.>> across a lot of lines making people say the right things. >> as the legal controls, the congressional oversight increased, so has the bureaucracy. >> you thought about the bureaucratic reorganization which may be worked even more confusingly than it was before. >> i'm not sure it's put entirely to bed. so the people spend an awful lot of time going to meetings and a lot of time writing memos, i've been in on that one. in that sense, it's sort of the opposite of what you think of in a james bond novel where he's a super cool guy in a tuxedo who goes out and shoot people. james bond would spend an awful lot of time writing memos from his file to the real world. >> what is cooperation level between michigan five, michigan six, the cia, the cia. >> cooperation with foreign intelligence services, liaison partners as the cia likes to call them is a