having seen it from both sides, how to you get those two sides to try and see one another as frank hutchins might say? >> guest: right. first of all, i don't see those two values as diametrically opposed. when i talk to professionals and some of police leaders that i respect the most, they understand that they want their -- they revere their officers. anybody who's like me who's had to rely on a police department, you see levels of courage and bravery every day in america of our police officers who are putting their lives online to protect their fellow americans. there's a story i tell in the policing chapter about being on the phone with my police director during a hostage situation and talking about what tragedy. but before i could even, he and i could even come to a conclusion about how to handle it, gunshots start going off, and i just hear in the phone go, go, go. the officers storm into the building, no situational awareness. these are men and women with families and others. i wouldn't be racing into that building, into fun fire. but these people -- gunfire. but these people are deter