and franklin butler, and he had a brother, they were winning drivers at the late-model level and franklin butler even was very competitive and had wins at higher levels. that brings up the point where even some light drivers in nascar, they are pushed out of the sport because they don't have the money to compete because again it is not like basketball or football. franklin brother and his brother brandon butler were one of those drivers. when you are trying to develop a black driver from scratch you have to do it in steps. you can't go out like a white team and just take the bus driver and put them in the car and get instant results were get results in the first or second season. franklin butler was an overqualified driver for that level of racing, and that is what some of the top teams, they just get the best driver, the best of everything in resources and go out there and probably will be in the top 10 or top three. then we bought the best mechanic for that level of racing, hermann gand, and a lot of crews at that level were volunteer crews so we started out paying, we offered some mone