and almost forming himself into fred jr.'s opposite. fred jr.as too soft and two nights, then donald was going to be a shark, a killer. so i think that is at the core of this father-son relationship, which is very much with the story is about. it is about a father-son relationship. these two men were extraordinarily close. donald trump said, we quote him that he felt he knew his father better than anybody else in the world. daily -- talked daily. they were in constant communication. donald trump was a constant prence. when fred trump would have started the dust strategy sessions with this top lawyers and accountants, figuring out what his next moves were, fred trump was often the sort of silent lurking presence at donald trump's flashy press conferences. than just a father-son relationship. it was also a partnership. amy: it is interesting you talk about the amount of federal trump that fred got. as donald came into the business, they were getting sued because they were getting federal support and they were discriminating against african-america

but his older brother, fred jr., was, gosh, i don't want to sound crass but he helped by getting outf the way, by dying. that was helpful. and before that by being just not a contender for being the heir apparent to fred scene, donald's father. he was not ambitious in the same way, was not belligerent, not aggressive, was none of the things that fred was looking for in an heir and donald was. so that was step one. and then the sisters, i spoke to donald's older sister, marian, and she was helpful. she's the oldest of the five childr children. she accepted the idea. it was the 1950s and 60s, i understand that, but she and her sister didn't -- you know, went along with the idea that only boys were even contenders to inherit the business. she instead became a federal judge. no slouch. she became a judge. the young aer brother worked wi donald until he got out of the way to help facilitate this massive transfer of wealth and avoiding any kind of taxes. >> you have covered him for so many years. what was the most surprising revelation from this whole "times" investigation for you? >> i ha

jr. would retweet this. how does this get mixed into things now? >> look, fred, this is a murder mystery wrapped in a conspiracy theory. there's a lot of stuff going around. for donald trump jr. to do that right now, just as we listened to his father, the president of the united states, say if a journalist was killed, that's disgusting, you know -- >> that would make -- doesn't it also make some kind of inference, potential inference with that? >> donald trump jr. is making that inference. the president did not make that inference. i've never jamal for close to 15 years. i can tell you, he's not a terrorist sympathizer. he's a saudi patriot who loves his country. he's an intellectual. he is familiar to a lot of us around town as someone we go to to try and -- and he tries to explain what's going on in the region. and, i mean, if i'm friendly with him, does that make me a terrorist sympathizer? that's ridiculous. i think you might see that tweet deleted. >> that's potentially hurtful and give than you knew him, and i didn't know that before you saying that, you k

fred trump created over 50 years, to channel wealth to his son. >> so -- >> almost 300 ways of getting this money to donald trump jr. >> and you know, this would be the allegations in this article, as i say, one reason why the president repeatedly has refused to release tax returns. if he were to release his tax returns and the "new york times" said they got thousands and thousands of pages of information on tax returns, didn't get that. if they had ax to his tax returns, it would be very, very bad for the president. >> it would be a lot harder for him to say that, you know, they've got it wrong or it's not true. if you could put his tax returns side-by-side to the other returns. you know, it's interesting that their attorney is just saying that this is 100% inaccurate but not providing any explanation around it. which could be they're thinking they've done it legally within the tax rules. as you said, there are ways to minimize taxes but the way the "times" explains it, like you said, in the lead, instances of outright fraud. >> we'll move on. i want to point out one reason why the president presumably is so concerned about the midterm elections