it fred trump was indispensable. en trump tower, which comes career,ter in donald's could not have been done without fred coming in and supporting the financing of it. when he opened his first casino in atlantic city, when you bought the first properties, leaseholds for the first properties for trump plaza, his casino in atlantic city, fred wrote down in the limo for him and sign all of the leaseholdld documents. nobody was going to be financicg this kid developer, kid casino operator. it was f fred who was the key to all of it. it is so ridiculous for him to call himself a self-made guy when fred was critical. and everything that came to donald came through political connections will stop they were political connections forged by his father over decades witith brooklyn politicians. he came from the same political club as then mayor of new york. an option for the grand hyatt and for the west side yards from a bankrupt railroad in whoadelphia, and the people are selling the assets of the bankrupt railroad wanted to mak

>> through -- through a very -- i mean fred trump was if nothing else on top of being a brilliant realstate developer, was also endlessly creative in finding new ways to funnel money to his children in general and to donald trump in particular. so we actually traced the beginning of this wealth transfer to when donald trump was three years old, a toddler, and he was making the equivalent of $200,000 a year at age three. he was a millionaire by age eight. he was being given ownership in one of fred trump's apartment buildings at the age of 17, and fred trump found all of these different ways to basically pay his son not just when he was sort of getting started, but through his life. so he didn't just put him on his payroll but he also made him his consultant, he made him his banker, he made him his landlord, he made him his property manager, his purchasing agent, on and on and on. and that's what we were able to piece together, especially through tens of thousands of pages of previously-confidential financial records that really describe the inner workings of fred trump's real estate em

fred trump, donald trump's father, was relentless and creative in finding ways to channel his wealth to his children. he made donald not just his salaried employee but his property manager, his landlord his banker and his consultant. he gave him loan after loan, many of which were never repaid. money for his car, money for employees, money to buy stocks, money for his first manhattan offices and money to renovate those offices. he gave donald trump three trust funds. he gave him shares in multiple partnerships. he gave him $10,000 checks at christmas time. he gave him laundry revenue from his buildings. being a young man who was just living off his dad's considerable wealth, just being on the receiving end of his dad giving him tons and tons of money and paying for everything in his life, that apparently was not the public image that trump wanted for himself, or that trump's dad wanted for his son. and so, the selling of a contrary and untrue public image about donald trump himself being some sort of self-made business maven, that is something that trump orchestrated, but the press r

>> incredibly creative ways that fred trump came up with to funnel money to -- to all of his children, but actually to donald trump in particular. we actually have been able to document 295 different streams of revenue that fred trump created to enrich donald trump over a 50-year period of time. i mean, it was kind of astonishing the different ways that fred trump funneled money to donald. he didn't just put him on his payroll. he made him his banker. he made him his landlord. he made him his consultant. he made him his property manager. he made him his purchasing agent. he gave him laundry revenue. sort of on and on and on and on. the various methods and strategies that fred trump used to funnel money to -- to president trump. and not just at the beginning of the president's career, but actually throughout his adulthood. you know, we could see and trace through the documents that we obtained that when the president was in trouble, fred trump was there and, you know, supporting him, trace to the documents that -- loans, et cetera. we've traced $413 million in direct financial support

in a way that fred trump perceived could put his entire empire at risk. ve given donald trump so much control over the empire that fred trump believed it would have allowed him to use everything that he had built for 70 years to bail out trump's own failing businesses. at that point in time, donald trump was in big trouble in the casino industry. >> shepard: the totality of the report, president trump, donald trump citizen, was not at all a great business man, that he squandered many millions and hundreds of millions. that his father bailed him out and the necessary taxes were never paid because they fiddled with the numbers. >> at one point, donald trump owed his dad $15 million. they were trying to figure out what do we do about this? if fred trump had set, okay, that debt is forgiven, donald trump would have owed income taxes on cancelled debt. instead, they found this other maneuver, involved one of trump's buildings, trump palace. what they did was they exchanged the debt that donald trump owed his father and instead donald trump gave his dad a portio

fred trump reported no such gift. did donald trump? i don't know. fred and mary transferred over $1 billion in wealth to their children. that's not really wrong, you have money, you want to give it to your kids, we understand. what about the taxes? 55% estate tax, that would be $550 million. the trumps paid a total of 52 million. it's about 5% of what they were supposed to pay. how does the president respond? deny everything through his lawyer and attack the source. this is the response. the new york times allegations of fraud and tax evasion are 100% false and highly defamatory. president trump had no involvement whatsoever with these matters. he was certainly part of the architecting of this scheme. the affairs were handled by other trump members who were not experts themselves and, therefore, relied entirely upon the aforementioned licensed professionals to ensure full compliance with the law. the white house is also responding, sarah sanders says -- it's sad to witness this misleading attack against the trump family by the failing new york times.

david, we don't even get into the fact that part of this real estate empire of fred trump's was builtst people of color and said they couldn't move into his many buildings. knowing donald trump's character, if in fact the federal government were to go after his family, maryanne trump, former federal judge, would donald trump care as long as they're not going after him? >> you know, donald will always be first and foremost after saving himself, but it would be -- i don't know how donald would react. tim may have a better insight into that if the state goes after them, but one thing to keep in mind here is that thievery, cheating, lying have been family practice. fred trump not only discriminated, he riptd off the taxpayers for $36 million causing president eisen hhower throw a fit because it was returning g.i.s from world war ii that fred was harming. >> apples and trees and david k. johnson, timothy o'brien two of the best reporters out there. been covering donald trump for a very long time. i recommend reading both of their books. thank you both for being here. really appreciate it.

the tax returns were fred trumps, not donald trump's. compagno, i want to get to the judge issue. this "new york times" story and the obviously the legal battle that ensues with now a number of new york state officials, the mayor of new york city saying we're going to pounce on this. what do you think? >> i think there's nothing more ferocious than the government that feels that they have lost income. if there is any whiff of any type of financial crime here that has not been prevented by the statute of limitations, there will be an investigation into it and resources dedicated to securing whether or not that is true. i've seen it first hand many times. the amount -- the ratio of taxpayer money invested into prosecuting and investigating financial crimes is disproportionate. it remains to be seen. >> neil: this is my thought going through "the new york times," it was very well-written, well-researched. we talked about a number of entities sheltering income or providing support for the family to skip taxes what have you. leaving that asid

hide money from the irs, the trump's repeatedly undervalued the worth of their properties and when fred trump senior, donald trump's dad was close to death, they launched an elaborate scheme to escape estate tacxes and gift tacks tht created fake companies that filtered to his children without penalties. be trump appear to have done more than exploit legal loopholes. the contact represented a pattern of deception about the value of trump's real estate. at the white house briefing, sarah huckabee sanders called this new york times report, very boring. >> i will say one thing the article did get right was it showed the president's father had a great deal of confidence in him. the president brought his father into a lot of deals and made a lot of money together. so much so his father went onto say everything he touched turn to gold. >> what might we find in president trump's taxes. ashley is an msnbc political analyst. russ, i want to start with you. the depth of this reporting is astonishing. remind us how this all began. it was because somebody mailed a tax return to your colleagues. >> i gues

but it's donald trump -- mine it's fred trump's business and fred trump's tax returns and then all the business relationships that they -- that we've never seen, the subsidiaries they had to hide what they were doing. >> blatant stuff, ways of essentially moving money from parents to children that you would have to declare as income that they hide from the irs and rip the government off. >> yeah, i talked to a tax lawyer tonight who said that he was a little bit shocked at how crude all these machinations were. he said, you know, maybe they couldn't hire -- or maybe they were too cheap to hire good tax lawyers. but, you know, they just did very blatant stuff. the main technique is -- which the irs really should catch and the state tax authorities should catch is just lying about the value of the assets. then when you're transferring them, if you say they're worth a lot less then you pay much lower taxes on it. that's a blatant, obvious fraud that really should be caught. >> by the way, this is lying on the underlying assets is a recurring theme in the michael cohen -- in some of the mi

it was fred trump's money. woodruff: susanne craig, extraordinary reporting. 38 pages when you print it out at "the new york times."th k you. >> thank you. >> woodruff: we return now tocs poliand new questions about judge kavanaugh's past, and the future of his confirmation battle in the senate. for more, we turn now to senator chris coons. he's a democrat from delaware an judiciary committee. senator, thank you for joining us. again, what do you know at this point about the stte of the f.b.i. investigation this onsupplemental investiga >> judy, i know that it's ongoing. i know that agents have been investigating and interviewing people over the last couple of days. i do not know what the exact scope is of this investigation or when theyntend to bng it to a close. >> woodruff: well, as our lisa deardins reported a few minutes ago, there is now a letter from dr. christine fo's attorneys to the f.b.i. saying that none of theti infor they've offered, their phone calls have not been returned, the information dave o

fred trump gave each of his children a part of his fortune. rump perhaps disproportionately benefitted because his father bailed him out of so many risky investments that were going south or side ways. to your point, remember that million dollar loan that trump always mentions as the only assistance he received from his father? the "new york times" reports that the small loan was at least $60 million or in today's numbers, that is $140 million. so now let's get into the details. how did fred trump avoid or evade taxes? let me take you through some examples. the times reports that fred trump's 1995 gift tax return on that return the trumps claim that about 7,000 apartments were worth about $41 million. but in 2004, a bank valued those same assets at $900 million. the paper says this strategy helped the family save hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes. another scheme the paper highlights, the times reports that fred trump allegedly transferred millions to his children to a company he created called all county building supply and maintenance.

fred trump used a sham company to fun el taxfree money to his children. the trump manipulated the value of their apartment building, claiming they were worth millions of dollars less than fair value. >> he helped transfer more than $1 billion of his parents' wealth to himself and his siblings, a sum they report would have produced a tax bill of at least $550 million. but they say the family employed a variety of tax dodges cutting that to $52.2 million. >> trevor: sweet jesus. so according to the times donald trump, the president by the way, remember, stole half a billion dollars from the american government. yeah. it's like if you robbed a bank and then they were like you know, what, we'll make you the c.e.o. yeah. and you know the one part of this story that ing brs me joy is that in order to pay less tax, trump had to pretend his properties properties were wort less than they actually were, that must have been worth such torture. so you see i shouldn't pay that much, the property is actually not that great. they're the greatest. >> no, they're not, don'

there's checks here, fred trump's transfers to his kids and it all indicates that donald trump didn't get a million dollar loan from his daddy, which is a lot, but millions. >> yeah. >> many, many, many millions. >> you know, mika -- >> ritchie rich was worth $8 million.

because fred trump was in the business of making money, and donald trump was in the business of losing money. and he lost money of fred's. throughout his career. it's like the cover has been ripped off this man. whatever myth there was, as you said earlier, that he was a self-made man, or that he was even a legitimate businessman, is gone forever. >> right. that's a mythology that is important to his public profile, but also goes to who he is as someone in his father's shadow. i should say, as he put it or you put it, one never knows when it comes to the book but i'll read from it. "i also realize if i ever wanted to be known as more than fred trump's son i was eventually going to have to go out and make my own mark." that's from "the art of the deal." how important was that interplay that even before there were other potential benefits to exaggerating his own role in this, he always did you find felt he needed to avoid crediting his father for what the "times" says tonight was basically a billion to him? >> have felt and said forever, as long as i've known trump, which is more than 30

none of us had, donald trump tax returns. -- fred trump tax returns. that to the times. we can guess all day long. a leak to trump tower -- neil: i immediately thought michael cohen. remember the raid on his offices and his home? he is the president's personal lawyer. wouldn't he have a lot of this stuff? cfo, who once -- >> just surmising. don't say michael did it. yes he could. neil: someone close -- >> to him. what they did, they got fred's returns. when you boil it down, it was very well-written, i should point out, two reporters. i worked with them. friendly with. just fyi, full disclosure, they're brilliant reporters. the thing that got me was the creation of the fake company that fred trump, and donald trump used that fake company, essentially to get, to create sham transactions, where they would transfer fred's wealth of that company and somehow pay for stuff at an inflated basis, right? so you can transfer his wealth. neil: this company, this third company. >> all american something. neil: washers, dryers, and ovens, stoves for the apartment c

the paper's entire investigation documented for showtime. >> fred trump's estate tax return is in the building right now. it's incredible that we have it. and that opened a door. and then once you pull the t string the whong unraveled. >> reporter: and while candidate trump boasted -- >> my father gave me a small loan of a million dollars. >>eporter: -- thetimes" says his father actually loaned him $60.7 million at the time and suggests that's not all he got. it says over the coursef his life mr. trump received the equivalent today of at least $413 million from his father's real estate empire, making him a millionaire by age d e "times" says he and his family avoided big tax hits on their wealth by engaging i questionable schemes. the paper calling the most overt fraud. a company created by the trumps in the early '90s which siphoned millions of dollars fro fred trump's empire by manipulating prices and pouring the profits into a shell company. the president's private saying the transactions in question were a handled approved by tax professionals, not family members. the white house

exhaustive investigation was based on tens of thousands of records including tax returns and audits from fred trump himself. nbc's white house correspondent kristen welker has more on the fallout from the article. >> reporter: it's the narrative that helped sweep president trump into the white house. a self-made billionaire with a little help from his real estate mogul father. >> i started off in a small office with my father in brooklyn and queens. >> reporter: but an explosive report by the "new york times" paints a very different picture. the "times" obtained tens of thousands of pages of financial records, documents nbc news has not had the opportunity to independently review. it found that mr. trump and hng deception and obfuscation," saying "much of this money came to mr. trump because he helped his parents dodge taxes. he and his siblings set up a sham corporation to disguise millions of dollars in gifts from their parents." the paper's entire investigation documented for showtime. >> fred trump's estate tax return is in the building right now. it's incredible that we have it. and that opene

. >> oh, wow. >> of various trump entities, including ones from fred trump and including entities that donald trump was a partner in. >> sue, new york state's now investigating. where is this all headed? >> well, that's -- that investigation is very interest, because one of the most overt frauds we found involved a company called all county building supply. it was the company that the trumps set up when they realized their father in their 80s was sitting on so much cash. he was incredibly wealthy, he hated debt, and they were facing the prospect of paying a 55% estate tax so they set up a company that helped them drain the cash out of fred trump's building so that they wouldn't have to pay this estate, and in doing this, they then created padded receipts in this scheme and they then passed it on to their tenants when they were justifying raising the rent on their rent regulated buildings, so there's a lot of area for new york state to explore in this. and the question now is will the irs look at this? some of it is old, but i mean, there seems to be not only area for that but also, i t

what they did is fred trump as part of running the buildings had to buy everythingrom boilers, paint, plumbing supplies, all this stuff, and he would pay vendors for it. one day all county started buying it. they would pay the vendors. then they would send a separate check up to their da and it would be padded anywhere from 20% to 50%. and they would pocket the difference. then the interesting thing about that is they would then pocket the difference, and then separately, they used these dded receipts and they sent them and they used them to justpay the ed receipts to justify rent increases on their tenants that werliving in rent-regulate buildings. we have the receipts where they d, this and we also have testimony from depositions we obtained where they say they did this. >> woodruff: in otr words, they went to quite elaborate steps. they took extraordinary steps to avoid paying additional millions and millions of dollars in taxes. >> they took elaborate steps, but in that case it's a straight forscene that's gangsterresque. one day you're paying him, now u're paying me, it's 20% mor

there's an example where "the times" writes about the family essentially leasing boilers back to fred trumpin order to both reap the profit from the lease, but also retain a lot of the equity in it. and this is what fred did when he was building apartments and got caught by the new york state assembly. renting himself equipment. in the 50s, he used trickery to raise the rents on veterans and low-income families that were moving into federally subsidized housing. and dwight eisenhower caught him. what's fascinating about this is that we don't have regulation anymore. there's not really an irs checking up on entities, so it's pretty easy to get away with all of this stuff. >> if i can add one thing. the one thing that's clear about all of this, is that the criminal statute of limitations has run on all of the behavior that's described in "the times" story. so, it's sort of an academic dispute about whether it's criminal or not. there is the potential for some civil remedies that might continue to be sought, if the irs gets off of its behind and does it, i would not be holding my breath to see

this is his father, fred trump. who passed away in 1999. d donald also got quite an inher tabs from his mother, mary trump. that's his mother. [ laughter ] i'm not sure donald trump and his mother are different people. [ laughter ] maybe we put a pair of big gold earrings on him, we could find out the truth as to who's who. whoa! who are you? >> it is i, frederick c. trump. did i hear you mention my name? >> jimmy: yeah. >> my ears were burning like a fat president in a tanning bed. >> jimmy: oh my goodness, mr. trump, this is a surprise obviously. >> oh my goodness, look at all these poors in this room. [ laughter ] >> jimmy: did you say poors? >> it's revolting, revolting. >> jimmy: poors? >> yes. >> jimmy: that's our audience. that's not nice of you to say. >> well, i guess that's why i'm in hell. [ laughter ] go figure. >> jimmy: oh, okay. how can i help you, mr. trump? >> jimmy, i'd just like to clarify a few things that have recently come to light about my totally above-board, completely legitimate, very legal fraudulent tax scheme. >>

the second really important point is that the amount of money that fred trump passed to his son throughift and inheritance was greatly increased by a number of very dubious tax schemes including instances of outright fraud. in one case as we describe in the story, the trump family set up a sham corporation that was basically designed to siphon cash out of fred trump's empire and into the pockets of the trump children in a way that would evade the 55% tax on gifts. there are a number of other things that we lay out in this story which we also, i should note, went to great lengths to actually make available to our readers the source documents, the actual tax returns and financial documents that form the basis of this investigation. >> a hell of a story. thank you for joining us by phone. it seems to me that one of the alfred hitchcock questions going in to this was how come unlike every other presidential candidate including hillary clinton we never get to see his tax returns. here we are, a classic example, if this is all true, he was hiding this. he wasn't a self-made billionaire. he wa

in a statement the press secretary says fred trump has been gone for nearly 20 years and it's sad to s this misleading attack against the trump family by the failing "the new york times." many decades ago the irs reviewed and signed off on these. the allegation of fraud and tax evasion are 100% false and highly defamatory. joining me now another reporter who knows a thing or two, david farenhold. it's an epic investigative report. the president says it's an old and boring hit piece basically from the failing "the new york times." your reaction s? >> it seems like the "the new york times" was confirming it. this was a really bulletproof story, but the president's reaction both through the press secretary last night and through twitter this morning seems be he can't find any knits to pick on by basically calling it old and saying it's not a big deal. >> is it a big deal based on reporting? for example we know the statute of limitations has probably run out of any kind of wrongdoing criminally, but you can still face civil fines right? >> absolutely. there are two consequences to this. f

those are two different things and one point i want to say in the '90s it was fred trump coming the rescue of his son donald trump who was facing pending personal and corporate bankruptcy so that's a misstatement by sarah sanders right there and i mean, just think about this, ali. if you think about the shear volume, the amount of money, the amount of real estate assets in new york city that donald trump has gifted by his father, it's amazing. if he had just sat on them, literally did nothing, he would be the real estate king of new york. >> you could just do that. have real estate in new york and just not -- >> sit on it like a chicken with an egg. >> kristen welker in the briefing room right now. with us by the way are legal analyst danny cevallos and linda fairstein. kristen, first of all, a lot of questions in there. many of which sarah huckabee sanders wasn't going to answer. >> she was defiant to the questions of president trump's comments last night regarding christine blasey ford, a number of reporters said that he was mocking ford. she really disputed that characterization. she sa

they report donald trump's father, fred, actually lent him at least $60.7 million. ng that much of the money was transferred through dubious tax schemes, including instances of outright fraud. and that donald trump sometimes played an active role. according to their investigation, by age 3, the president was earning $200,000 a year in today's dollars from his father's empire. he was a millionaire by age 8. in his 40s and 50s -- >> thousands of people are spending millions of dollars on new york city. >> reporter: he was receiving more than $5 million a year, netting 413 million in today's dollars over time. >> tax returns of trump, companies, trump partnerships, trump trusts -- >> reporter: "the times'" reporters whose process is captured in this showtime documentary -- >> it's incredible that we have it and that opened a door to understanding a huge transfer of wealth that happened. >> reporter: saying trump, even devised some of the tax maneuvering pointing to records they say show he helped transfer more than $1 billion of his parents' wealth to himself and his si

the whole point was fred trump had so much confidence and faith in his son. baloney. his son was trying to gut this thing. ben, you point out one angle that you think the trumps could end up owing the tax man 400 million bucks. >> yes. >> that's a big nut. >> it's a big nut. it's quite possible. the criminal liability is probably run because the statute of limitationings. but they can still look at the undervaluing of assets, all these various tax dodges. and say, look, at the time, you paid way too little. there's 200 million owed, plus penalties and interest. they could certainly attempt to recoup that money. take a long time and a lot of discovery and all these other things. but that's a huge amount of money that trump might have to right. he is, in fact, most liable, because he is the one signing off on a lot of these documents and was the executor of the estate so he could be on the hook for a huge amount. >> you know firsthand, president trump, he doesn't like discovery. tim, you pointed out that the biggest standout in this article was a company called all count

they found out fred trump was cheating from programs to help gis from world war ii.embers were all involved in this one way or another, but particularly donald and robert. >> let's listen to donald trump's own explanation of how he got rich and how much he got from his father. >> it's not been easy for me. it has not bent heen easy for m. i started in brooklyn. my father gave me a small loan of a million dollars. i came to manhattan and i had to pay him back with interest. >> my father gave me a small loan in 1955 and i built it into something big with lots of assets. i say that because that's what this country needs. >> there are so many lies there we could have a whole hour show on it. >> take your time, david. >> the single biggest grasp the country hasn't grasped, donald the candidate told everyone he was worth 10 billion. he is actually worth 4 billion. i shout and others have that the financial statement he filed is grossly misleading. it overstates assets left and right. he is not required, as he himself said in 2015, to report all of his debts. there is not n

the one that is the most overt is a story about fred trump is in his 80s, aging. t believe in debt. he is sitting on mountains of cash. the trump children were looking at a situation where he could die and they would be paid -- estate tax was 55%. they were facing this coming up at some point. >> which the president ran on eliminating. >> he found his own way to reduce it where they set up the company. in fred trump's buildings he would buy stuff from vendors. so in 1992 the kids set up a company. they started purchasing it and would pay the vendors $300 for an air conditioner and send a separate receipt and charge $100 more and pocket that. >> that sounds like money laundering. >> a bit of a gangster thing. >> internal money laundering. >> one day you are paying me and paying me 50% more. >> did you calculate the dollar value of taxes dodged here? i think that is important for folks to realize. that is money that does not go to schools, roads, bridges, et cetera. >> we had certain years and the scope is hundreds of millions of dollars. >> in taxes not paid. >> i k

. >> this is my father, fred trump. >> reporter: according to the paper, fred trump gave his son at least $413 million in today's dollars from his real estate empire, much of it through "dubious tax schemes" including "instances of outright fraud." the president's attorney calling the allegations "100% false and highly defamatory." "the times" investigation asserts more than a billion dollars of his parents' wealth was transferred to trump and his siblings, creating a potential tax bill of "at least $550 million," but instead, it's alleged if family used "tax dodges" and paid "$52.2 million." new york state tax department now investigating. >> the city of new york is looking to recoup any money that donald trump owes the people of new york city, period. >> reporter: authorities say they could pursue back taxes and penalties. and the other outstanding question? the president has repeatedly promised to release his tax returns after an audit is complete. here's what he told david during the campaign. >> you won't reveal what you've paid in taxes unless the audit is done? >> when the audit is

story saying they talked to many who worked with the trump organization, donald trump's father fred trump and through an extensive investigation found that trump participated in dubious tax feeds in the 1990s including allegations of outright fraud. that's the "new york times" alleging that. they found the actions had, that in effect by trump greatly increased his fortune and trump helped his parents set up sham companies to disguise millions in gifts he received. the "new york times" also is reporting that, you know, at one point one of these allegations is that the trumps' parents transferred to donald trump and his siblings $1 billion, but, in fact, the trump family had only paid $52 million in taxes which the tax bill could have been $500 million. >> a statement from a lawyer representing the president. what does that state. >> right. the president's attorney said that the "new york times" allegations of fraud and tax evasion are 100% false and highly defamatory. he said there is no fraud or tax evasion by anyone, and that the allegations are extremely inaccurate and said that the tru

they came up, and then we also developed a network of sources of people who were in and around the fred trumprump empire during the pertinent years here. and then through that process gained access to a couple hundred tax returns related to fred trump's businesses, his general ledgers, his bank statements, and we were able to collate all of that into a sort of cohesive narrative of what transpired. >> on top of everything else you must now deal with environmentalists because i'm told you're a tree killer. they added eight pages. apparently there's a print version of the "new york times" website that they put out every day. and they added eight pages to the print run. that meant bringing in union typesetters and printing workers tonight for the "new york times." so maybe you've made the holidays more joyous for some families and there are? trees in the pacific northwest that are no more. obviously our message to the viewers is that we hope everyone takes the time to read your piece of journalism. thank you so much at the end of a longer than usual day for you and your colleagues for coming in

add 20% whatever fred trump bought. ong donald trump and his siblings. french up and his one or two executives would negotiate the price. off county,e them through a bank account and pay that $20,000 for the boiler. he would pay off county $24,000 for the border. that created a surplus of $4000. donald trump and his children would split that. within a few years, that was kicking off more than a million dollars for each of the trump siblings. host: was that legal? guest: from what we have been told, it was not legal. they did no work for it at all. it had no purpose, other than to avoid taxes. itre was another aspect of based off of legality issues. they would use that instead of the $20,000 that they spent on it. they would use the $24,000 price and apply for rent increases on their rep -- rent regulated property. people we have spoken to have told us that they were filing false documents. if that have been caught, they would have been from a prosecution. host: another term that comes up in your 50,000 word piece, granto

. >> as for that loan, the "times" reports fred trump lent him $60 million or $140 million in today'slars. with the lead editorial in today's "new york times," that puts it more bluntly calling trump's origin story a sham saying it's version of reality so elaborately embellished it qualifies as fan fiction more than biography. yet we've seen trump goes to great lengths to maintain the illusion of self-made billionaire. here's what trump said about those who question the value of his assets in 1995. >> the only critics that would say that are losers. and people that know better or they don't know it all or they're jealous or have problems. >> and here's how trump reacted in 2016 when marco rubio challenged him on the source of his money. >> this is what we're going to have as president? >> here's a guy that inherited $200 million. you know where he would be right now? selling watches in manhattan. [ cheers and applause ] >> that is so wrong. we'll work on that. i took $1 million and i turned it into $10 billion. i borrowed $1 million. >> then release the tax returns so we can see how m

within weeks of the very times piece fred trump was arranging a $4 million trust for his son while trumpe builds things on his own. >> at an age of 37, i don't believe anyone has built more things that we have in terms of the business that i'm in. >> the times document at that very time in the '80s, trump was getting salary from his dad. about quarter of a million in today's currency saying it wasn't easy. >> it's not been easy for me. it's not been easy. i started off in brooklyn. my father gave me a small loan of a million dollars. >> the evidence shows that a wild lie because fred trump lent him over 140 million in today's dollars. this is not some kind of starter money for when hef was in his teens or 20s or maybe a few gifts as he was growing up. what we find in the new piece is while trump was trouting his riches on tv he was getting some of the biggest gifts from his dad like in 2004 when the apprentice premiered. ♪ money money money ♪ money money money ♪ money >> you see both of those things you're look at on the left and right are 2004. that was the year trump got $236 million i

look at the signatures of fred trump on the checks.the point about the democrats, if they take back the house, there is no question elijah cummings who would be the chairman, are we going to be the nightmare? it is in the eyes of the beholder. that is what the democratic congressman from mayor laryland. a bit of tongue and cheek. but you can be sure that they will use their subpoena power. my other question though, if this is a past practice and it is laid out in such meticulous amazing riveting detail, we know robert mueller has looked into the trump organization. we know that they handed off to the southern district of new york a case in which the chief financial officer of the trump organization and michael cohen are cooperating, the question is, if spas prologue, are there people who are looking at this and saying okay, this is the '90s when fred trump was in failing health and the family was trying to decide thousand handle the fortune. what about after that, did this practice continue.thousand handle the fortune. what about after

fred trump would benefit because he'd get a lower price.but then we realized that all county owned by the trump children was paying for boilers. and then they were charging fred for the very same boilers this big mark-up. they were padding the invoices. they would buy a boiler for 10,000, they'd turn around and sell it to fred for 15,000, and that's when you start realizing, oh, wait a minute, they're using all county to disguise cash gifts from fred trump as if they're a legitimate business transactions. >> that was an extraordinary illustration of the kinds of corrupt practices or fraudulent tax practices that your piece detailed. can you talk about its significance? >> well, its significance is sort of in the kind of grubby nature of the whole thing. this is the president of the united states, a man who has presented himself as a billionaire, a master of high finance. and this was more like something you see on an episode of sopranos. it's a very simple little scheme where you're just padding an invoice and providing no service for it at

it was financed by his father, fred trump. ceiving money from his father's empire starting when he was toddler and continuing to this day. and that, president trump participated in tax schemes in the 1990s including instances of outright fraud that greatly increased the fortune he received from his parents. the president, his attorney and his brother have denied the allegations. the report and the work of the investigative team are the subject of a new documentary on show time which premiered last night. nbc news has not verified the reporting. suzanne thomas is one of the reporters who broke the story and she joins me. the immediate results of your story was this new york state tax authority looking into the allegations now. from your reporting, do you have a sense of where state authorities might be focusing? >> i think we're still in pretty early days in the city. they're going to look both at the allegations of fraud that we had in the story and some -- i think pretty basic things like was enough property tax paid on certai

it has consequence just like fred trump but in a different direction. we lose out not only of the history that the consequences of racial segregation. and now i feel i can repeating myself but the trump family was sued successfully by the justice department for housing discrimination. and to have those black newspapers and civil rights groups but then to run the administration and when they initiated a policy and they can better promote housing with detroit to say that fighting over this may depreciation our property value. and to suggest to be hurt so president trump coming into office of the obama era initiative eliminating community block grants home investment partnership programs all of these designed to improve housing in previously neglected black and latino neighborhoods. there was a lot of talk about what happened? why do people vote for trump especially if they voted for obama michigan and wisconsin and pennsylvania showing frustration with the political elite - - elite this describes that the country may be getting away from them. but trump h

he would be out of business but for fred trump. donald trump had a near death experience with debt with a personal bankruptcy. had fred's money not been there, the donald trump story would have stopped in about 1992. >> let's share what donald trump, then candidate, back in 2015 said. >> my father gave me a small loan of a million dollars. >> yeah, so that's absolutely -- >> a small loan of a million dollars. brett, what do you think this does to donald trump's narrative? because, again, 35% of the population think this guy's a business god. >> you know, for the longest time whenever i have encountered trump supporters, one of the lines i keep hearing is, yeah, but he's a very successful businessman. that's the kind of ceo that we need in america today. >> he's a very successful branding and marketing guy. >> i'm not quite sure about that either. this article tells us, i'm not quite sure, and we're going to have to look carefully where the line of tax evasion starts and -- what this piece tells us and fleshes out in this extraordina

the "times" reports trump's father fred was the source of his wealth, giving him at least $413 millionoday's dollars. just one example, "the times" reveals fred trump set up a shell company called all county building supply and maintenance owned by his children. "the times" says fred trump bought refrigerators and other supplies under the name of all county, then sold those items to himself at jacked up prices, allowing him to pay his children the difference, not as a heavily-taxed gift but as profit. >> it was a way of passing on the family fortune to the next generation without accumulating massive tax bills. >> reporter: a trump family tradition, biographers say, of deceiving the public and the government about their true wealth. >> you know, when the trumps present themselves to tax authorities they're paupers. they own golf courses that are worth the equivalent of a house or two on the fairway. but when they present themselves to the public, why, then they're the richest people you can imagine around. >> reporter: trump's lawyer and his brother are refuting "the new york times" re

and then $413 million -- in today's dollars, the equivalent would have been $413 million of what fred trumpe to donald trump over the years. your thoughts? >> you are correct about the math, and i think it has been evident to all of us -- david i know researched this thoroughly and i looked into it. even if you go back to the commodore hotel deal, which became trump tower itself, there were tens of millions of dollars of fred trump's money engaged, and his credit was the credit that allowed donald to get financing for his early projects. one of the things that is fascinating in all of this is that new yorkers and really people j people generally, i think, there was an incredible amount of hype around the president's wealth, and it is almost baked into how people regard him. on one side people will say, well, he's just a very shrewd man and took advantage of all the loopholes and extra benefits you get when wealth is inherited, and others will say that's donald trump, we knew who he was and how in the world can you support him? "the times" contributed immensely to the record, but as we all s