i just thought of when lincoln meets with frederick douglass in 1864. can you talk about that for a second or no for my literary purposes if frederick douglass had not existed. i would have had to invent it. yeah, because i tell the parallel and intertwining stories of john brown and abraham lincoln, but the two never met. and so i needed somebody not only who had met both who would tie those parts of the story together, but also because i could tell the story of john brown sir. i could get inside john brown's head. he writes his letters and you know, i get that i get same with lincoln, but i need to know what they look like to people on the outside and it would be great if i had the same person looking at both of them because i'm doing an effect this comparison and frederick douglass knew john brown. he met john brown in the 1840s and so he sort of new what john brown was up to and the kind of things that john brown hope to accomplish he eventually met abraham lincoln and well, actually there's a striking moment in the story the story in my story where

and you know he went on to become my there's so many things to say about frederick douglass. let me just say that at the assassination he too was devastated. it was a terrible day for him. mary lincoln reached out to him at that time. he'd come to think highly of her. she in some ways was more committed to the abolition cause and her husband. he was extraordinary woman in many ways, but she sent frederick douglass a gift upon his death her husband's death, and it was her husband's favorite walking stick. it's an antler-headed cane. and she said my husband loved this and he would like you to have it. and douglas that became one of his prized possessions. he took it with him wherever he went and many of his too many of his speeches and he you know, he became one of the great orators of the of the day. and he often spoke about abraham lincoln in the years ahead. he gave dozens of talks about lincoln which make very interesting reading to this day. but you sometimes would take this cane up and you're waving around and say this cane used to belong to abraham lincoln. and now it be

which frederick douglass couldn't because he was black. booth got into those because he was dating the daughter of an abolitionist, new hampshire senator john hale. and apparently he got a pass assigned paths which which the talismanic pass as they put it in the new york herald to get into the event. and while lincoln was after the ceremonies in the senate chamber, which included johnson's rather drunk and rant they all marched out. to the platform outside and lincoln led the way and while lincoln was marching along this young man. slipped into the line and was right behind lincoln and benjamin brown french who was sort of overseeing these activities actually saw this young man and pulled the stopped him had him stopped and they questioned them and he was very hot-headed very angry. how dare you questioned me and they they sort sort of let him go. and six weeks later after lincoln's assassination french recognized in the picture of both the young man he had stopped in the line. so there's a i think this strong reason to believe both wanted

i know that is taken from an great quote from frederick douglass and charles leno frederick douglass, he's really a great example of the paradigm you are talking about in self-actualization and empowering the individual. >> that is right. ps i write in the book i wrote in the book that he is a role model for social entrepreneurs and not only because he overcame so much and in spite of that of what he had to overcome the accomplish so much. as he described his ah-ha moments, what caused him to do that and so there is a lesson for all of us, not that we are going to be frederick douglass or accomplish what he did but we can learn from bad and if i could just mention a few of them, i think it's important. the first one was when he was eight years old. he learned that he wasn't a slave although he was warned in slavery, he wasn't a slave because he was inferior, he was a slave because he was being kept ignorant and so he was determined to change that and he threw ingenious methods taught himself to read in the next ah-ha moment for him was when he was 16 he got the opportunity to teach su

open the door and sit down with someone who has been kicking his butt on the public stage. >> frederick douglassre not having the same kinds of rights the other soldiers were. lincoln said to him, these things will happen, but it's going to take time. >> frederick douglass comes out of that meeting not entirely satisfied with lincoln's response, but he says to the black population, look, despite this discrimination, this is our chance to prove ourselves. >> at the end of the war, we will have earned citizenship. >> they stay, they fight. because they're fighting not just for freedom today, but freedom for their children and their grandchildren in generations to come. >> armed black soldiers on their battlefields elicit an explosive reaction from the south. >> one of the things that's actually kind of ironic is that white southerners by seceding make it possible for lincoln to eman's wait enslaved people. lincoln said, i have no interest in attacking slavery where it legally exists, i don't think i'm legally allowed to. but when they become enemies in war, they create the legal justification for

and many of the luminaries and frederick douglass had to in effect. cast his remarks in terms, that would have national significance and not just significance for him as a former slave. he did point out that this didn't quite capture the full reality. and even to the extent that it did he suggested that it might indicate that lincoln was the white man's president more so than the black man's president. and he did this to some extent to be contrary to some to some small degree, but he really wanted to get the attention focused on the man who is kneeling there in the statue. as it turns out. this was a replica of an actual man who had escaped from slavery and missouri during the civil war a man by the name of archer alexander. now there was a report in the paper last spring indicating that genealogists have discovered that in fact muhammad. ali is a direct descendant of the real live archer alexander. alexander was his great great grandfather. but the point here simply, is that in one view. not just of the timeline but of emancipation it's lincoln who i

and what about frederick douglass? and the evolving relationship between the president and this great writer and orator? and how that all came together. both during the inauguration, and after the reception in the white house that evening. >> douglas is probably the key character in the book, besides lincoln. i think the narrative of the arc of the -- is the books subplot. i think it also suggests how the publics attitude towards lincoln changed over time. douglas eventually had great contempt for lincoln as a politician. he thought he was working for the right people. but he came to see overtime lincoln's political skills and passionate hatred of slavery were essential to the discord -- destruction of that. in his first integrations, he struck out of the mud in a second, ones they wouldn't let black americans into the capital. he was stunned that lincoln was to fighting the war as gods will when slavery ended. douglas said lincoln's words struck me at the time and seem to contain ever more vital substance that i have

that's taken from a great quote from frederick douglass. i now charles you call him one of your heroes about he is really a great example that i think of the paradigm you have been talking about, the belief in the individual and self-actualizeddation and empowering the individual. >> that's right. he as i write in the book that i wrote in the book that he is a role model for social entrepreneur, and not only because he overcame so much and in spite of that of what he had to overcome he accomplished so much, is he is described his ah-ha moments. what caused him to do that, and so there is a lessons for all of us, not that we'll be frederick douglass and british what he did. the first was when he was eight years old, the learned that he wasn't a slave, although he was born in slavery, he wasn't a slave because he was inferior help as slave because he was being kept ignorant and he determined to change that. and he through ingenious methods taught him to read and then the next ah-ha moment for him was when he was 16, he got the opportunity to

an image of tubman and of frederick douglass.hey were contemporaries but live very different lives. both were fugitives, both eventually became free. tubman much later. in many ways, the archival work to put together the lives of enslaved people is difficult labor, but fortunately, you have enough information to paint a life for tubman. susan: how famous or sometimes infamous was harriet tubman during the arc of her own life? erica: in many ways, tubman does not become famous or iconic way we understand her right now. until way after she left the planet, way after her death. but she was of course notorious during the 1850's in particular because she was a major conductor on the underground railroad. there were bounties placed on her head. there are different arguments about how much they were. we know she was a wanted woman for a good 15 or so years of her life. for that reason, she moved about the north and the south anticandida in what -- and canada in ways that were strategic. she lived as a free person when she escaped. her f

douglass. >> the more that's known about slavery, the better. don't you agree? >> frederickter and i have hired an agent who has been in contact with you all. he is willing to sell you. >> sell? >> as son as transaction is completed we can gift you your freedom. >> freedom. >> freedom. >> welcome home, papa. >> rosetta. >> i like this. that's good. >> thank you very much. >> rosetta, who is at the door, please? >> yes, papa. it's mrs. tubman. >> harriet! oh, my goodness. so good to see you. >> frederick. frederick. >> rosetta, lock the door. the. >> oh, a warm stove is sure a welcome sight. >> harriet, this is my friend from england. she's been helping to straighten out the paup's finances. >> i'm so honored, mrs. tubman. i've heard so much about you. even in england. >> i'm just an old lady that loves to do a lot of walking in the great outdoors. [ laughter ] most times at night. >> and she's fond of bloodhounds, too. >> wherever i go, i hear folks talking about john brown. >> we're indebted to your deed in kansas. they say you freed over 100 slaves. >> several hundred. we

like most former slaves, even frederick douglass, who wrote and spoke extensively, the are details about her life, we do not know. that i think in many ways she did not know. certainly, we were details about her life she refused to share, and i will be discussing those as well. she comes to us largely through the lens of whites, of white america, friend and foe, supporters and opponents, people curious and judgmental, to people who actually knew her and then people who met her in passing. for whatever reason, she ensured that was the case. she clearly spoke her mind. we know that. we have enough to indicate that. she did that over at least half her 86 years. she walked over much of this country. she did verbal battles with some of the most important add skilled debaters of the time. so we know a lot about her. but it still pretty much comes from white audiences. from white photographers, but newspaper reporters, allies, opponents and it comes in a way that represents the racial thinking of the time. this was a time period of racism, also sexism and classism. it also comes from us, and ho

it gets a huge amount of national attention. >> frederick douglass is outraged. he says "mr.don't you get it yet? slaves are not the cause of the war. slavery is the cause of the war." >> but lincoln is not there yet. >> the country is on edge as the deadline for lincoln's emancipation threat approaches. it is unclear what the terms and details of the decree will be. the future and the freedom of millions of americans lie in the balance. >> african americans were waiting to see if lincoln was really going to follow through. >> as the clock ticked down, on december 31st, 1862, you can convey the tension the abolitionists and the activists held watch meetings. >> there were groups of enslaved people by candlelight waiting for the strike of midnight. knowing that in that moment that we could be free. . >> the greatest battle of the war, gettysburg, 50,000 casualty. >> lincoln became the consoler in chief. >> but on the other hand, he had this incredibly brutal way of thinking about war making. >> "lincoln" next sunday night at 10:00. garnier infuses vitamin c in the new garnier

to think about this project and to encourage the project is the research that i've found on frederick douglass his words. so was it was a civil war that inspired douglas to write and speak on photography like many americans. he believed that photographs and pictures greatly contributed to the succession and a war over slavery during the civil war douglas wrote a number of lectures. he also had created this sense of man the sense of commitment to the war and he wrote once you the black man get upon his person the breath letter us. let him get an eagle on his button and a musket on his shoulder and bullets in his pocket and there's no power on earth or under earth which can deny that he has earned the right to citizenship in the united states. finding that quote and i use it often just in terms of in the aspect of the visuality of the experience of being photographed harry may weems is a contemporary artist who is central to my research. so i look she as we think about the missing history of images carrie may weems. creates this self-portraits and an antebellum dress style with with a quilt and

that is why frederick douglass said that. he said that before the civil war.eople do not have control of their own lives, they can be packed up and sent anywhere if someone forces them to do that. the one thing they can rely on is their own in bodied skills because that is something they can use for leverage. that's obviously a hugely different context but in a time of continuing economic inequality, it is true. the feeling of what it is to be skilled. norman: i can't help -- i push it from every level, a lot of the things i'm teaching in class are definitely approaching as much as possible, how do we get outside the class? how do we learn from johan's? how do we learn the denim maker down the street -- learn from the denim maker down the street? i think the last thing i want to touch on is your thought around craft and technology, which i think you touched a little bit on in the final chapter. i've been listening to the book, but i'm trying to get glenn to tell us more about what your thoughts are because i know you collect so much information from artists an

she and frederick douglass were in a more serious venue trying to promote civil rights and equal rightsn the others of the fair. host: jane addams is another social reformer you have profile in your podcast. who was jane addams? ms. vollenweider: she is considered the mother of social work. she established the first settlement house here in the united states. she had been to europe and saw in england a community of people helping the community. they lived in the community to create social change and chose as social programs that help people establish in the community. she came back to the united states, establish a community just like that in chicago, but the difference between hers and the one in england is the women she brought in to create the social programs and also to live there were women like her. middle-class to upper middle class, educated women, women who would not have been living in that neighborhood at all were brought in and able to do things that society would not have let them do anyway, establish daycare centers and kindergartens. just a variety of welfare -- not welfa

where was frederick douglass. why wasn't frederick douglass there because our scholarship, you know our circle there are three or four books on lincoln and on lincoln and douglas and yet the woman elizabeth keckley who he saw every day is first slade who he was very very involved with he used to take his son to play days. i mean the black community in washington was very involved in lincoln and as you point out, you know, there there was this importance of connecting lincoln to that legacy and i think harriet tubman is a part of the larger broader portrait of doing that in this particular film was one of the first now i will say a lot of my colleagues have problems with abraham lincoln vampire hunter and mike and justifiably so catherine any film that brings together harriet tubman and mary lincoln working together to win the battle of gettysburg. you've got to see it to believe it. i i think you know with something like abraham lincoln the web vampire hunter what has to take it as an allegory. it's a metaphor obv

it gets a huge amount of national attention. >> frederick douglass is outraged. he says "mr.t you get it yet? slaves are not the cause of the war. slavery is the cause of the war." >> but lincoln is not there yet. >> the country is on edge as the deadline for lincoln's emancipation threat approaches. it is unclear what the terms and details of the decree will be. the future and the freedom of millions of americans lie in the balance. >> african-americans were waiting to see if lincoln was really going to follow through. >> as the clock ticked down on december 31st, 1862, you can convey the tension. the abolitionists and the activists held watch meetings. >> there were groups of enslaved people by candlelight waiting for the strike of mid night, knowing that in that moment, that we could be free. we're all born with 2.5 billion heartbeats, that makes you a billionaire. ♪ so let's not waste the fortune within us... invest in the people you love. inveswith so manybeats inourishing shades, invea color change is easy.ve. nutrisse has 77. from our darkest blacks, to our lightest bl

. >> one of lincoln's harsh critics is frederick douglass, an escaped slave who gained national recognitionlavery writings. >> douglass was one of the most prominent leaders in the african american community. >> one of the greatest figures of the abolitionist movement, a great writer, a great newspaper editor, a great orator. >> when lincoln said he was not trying to abolish slavery in all the southern states, that did not appeal to frederick douglass. >> a lot of times when people celebrate lincoln, it's a way of also saying lincoln is better than the radical republicans and his restraint in really pushing hard for the freedom of african american people, that was a wise course to avoid a catastrophe. but it doesn't avoid a catastrophe. what actually happened is we went to war. >>> the civil war as we know it begin. >> the war came home really fast for lincoln. casualties are huge. >> lincoln feels responsible. >> "lincoln" next sunday night at 10:00. to support local restaurants, we've been to every city. including little rock and even worcester. and tonight... i'll be eating the chicken q

. >> one of lincoln's harshest critics is frederick douglass. >> douglass was one of the most prominentan-american community. >> one of the greatest figures of the abolitionist movement. a great writer, a great newspaper editor, a great orator. >> when lincoln said he was not trying to abolish slavery in all the southern states, that did not appeal to frederick douglass. >> a lot of times when people celebrate lincoln, it's a way of also saying, lincoln is better than the radical republicans in that his restraint in really pushing hard for the freedom of african-american people, that was like a wise course to avoid a catastrophe. but it doesn't avoid a catastrophe. what actually happened is we went to war. >> the civil war as we know it begins. >> the war came home really fast for lincoln. casualties are huge. >> lincoln feels responsible. (vo) welcome to the next, next level. this phone paired with 5g ultra wideband-- wow! (vo) the new samsung galaxy s21 is here and it's on verizon 5g ultra wideband, the fastest 5g in the world. available in parts of many cities. it's not just a great

frederick douglass wasn't just responding to the words.d slavery morally before. but now when he says slavery was wrong, he's saying it having signed the emancipation proclamation and the 13th amendment, really committed in a new way. the speech without those other actions wouldn't have mattered. >> and that was the last time they encountered each other. >> this cnn original series, "lincoln: divided we stand," is brought to you by fidelity cologard. colon cancer screening made easy. table. i'm cologuard. i'm noninvasive and detect altered dna in your stool to find 92% of colon cancers even in early stages. tell me more. it's for people 45 plus at average risk for colon cancer, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your prescriber or an online prescriber if cologuard is right for you. i'm on it. sounds like a plan. we're all born with 2.5 billion heartbeats, that makes you a billionaire. ♪ so let's not waste the fortune within us... invest in the people you love. invest your heartbeats in the life artois. tonigh

to be, was most shocking is when i see a historical figure, like frederick douglass who was one of thet photographed human beings in the 19th century. we have seen photographs of him over and over, but he always seemed stern and fixed. if you see his face moving, he becomes a real human being. he looks like somebody you could have a conversation with. the same goes for queen victoria, who is famous for looking very stern in her official portrait. when i see her moving, she looks younger and more human. she does not look like a human figure -- not like a mythical figure. brent: almost as if she was on the netflix series, the crown. tell us about the company, my heritage, that is behind what we are seeing. how are they trying to sell this? >> they are trying to sell it as something people can use for nostalgic purposes. so, people that want their ancestors to be brought back to life. or, people who lost loved ones and don't have video recordings. thisxample shows that perfectly. this woman died in 2017 of cancer. we spoke to her daughter, who actually posted this online. her daughter sai

and frederick douglass is, no. basically what he says i'm a writer, not a fighter. but he knew that john brown's rate, his vision was going to fail, because fredericton glass has been a slave. and he knew that slaves were going to weigh their chances on coming out of this life and they would realize, not very good. and so, fredericton glaze was last out there on the subject of abolition. then john brown, but he was farther outer than abraham lincoln. and so, fredericton goes tries to slow john brown down, he tries to speed abraham lincoln up. until during the first part of the war, frederik dog was in his newspaper name the douglas journal, he his berating abraham lincoln from being so slow. this is a war by slavery, we have to declare war in the flavors. we have to do this. and you just think that mike is going so slow until finally, the emancipation proclamation. and then he finally says, okay, lincoln, you finally got right on this. and lincoln brings douglas into the white house. he considers him a confidant, invites look into the reception of his second or naku

guides support staff and recruiters for the military in fact, the person prays by lincoln and frederick douglass as the most effective exponent of the union cause was anna dickinson the first woman to address congress in a courageous order who stood down pro slavery mobs in the same way. immigrants and catholics left. no doubt that day two willingly risked everything for their country by the time the war ended in 1865 a consensus has spread through the country that those previously denied the rights of citizenship had proven that worth and deserved full legal inequality. the result was a trio of amendments that sought to correct to glaring contradictions in the constitution. it's unstated support for slavery, and it's failure to define citizenship. the first issue was resolved by the 13th amendment which ended slavery in the united states. defining citizenship proved a little bit more difficult difficult and contentious resulting in the 14th amendment which became part of the constitution 1868. its opening words appeared to make clear the legal inequality of all americans in eloquent and precise

i think that i i'm you know, i'm i rely, you know, there's a lot of frederick douglass in here. and you know, they're probably could be a bit less, or maybe there should be more it's not a super long book, but i i i think that i started. binding as i was doing the research finding these folks who i just thought were were so cool who had done such impressive and wide-ranging work and so, you know willis hodges is one example that you bring up and and what's i don't know. there's there's a lot that's really wild about hodges story to me. just the the decision to leave your family in virginia and try to make a new life for yourself in new york. and then the decision say you know, what? manhattan or brooklyn is not where i want to be. i'm gonna go to the adirondacks and it's it's it's a it's fascinating to think about the choice and the decision that went into that and it's tough because you know, we can't have that much of the thought process that went went into that just in terms of seeing the records, but we do have from hodges more than we would from from a lot of other black fo

is a male problem period and so there are 2 solutions here as always number one the words of frederick douglass it is sometimes easier to grow good children than it is to repair broken men the fact that a 4th of us including myself under the age of 18 in this country grow up in a single parent household that's almost always a mother indicates that we are emotional and the economic center of gravity is a woman which makes us reimagine what is possible that we grow up respecting women so we need to find solace and encouragement that that is happening and continue to raise children that understand that gender is a strength and it's something that needs to be seen exactly of all the other side though is we need to repair a lot of these broken men the fact that an individual can have a euphemistic bad day which is by the way on that captain and i'm glad that he's gone right now for the for the time being the fact that he can utilize that and then de fall as a domestic terrorist to fetishizing women for their own death is insanity is absolute insanity and so there's a couple things that we have to de

william still, thomas garrett, sydney gay and martha, frederick douglass, and -- are also highlighted. the next section i'd like to talk to you about is harriet tubman's time during the civil war. harriet time in was a scout, a spy and a nurse during the civil war and on june 1st 1863, she became the only woman to plan and execute and on grade. so is harriet tubman, colonel james montgomery and the second south carolina color troops, and they took three steam power gunships, which you can see over there, you can see two of them. and the got the river 25 miles into the depths of south carolina. they flooded rice fields, they burn plantations and they emancipated 750 to 800 people, which is very significant because in tubman's time, people of course were property. so that was a huge loss for the slaveowners down there. and that's what this is showing. harriet tubman and a roundabout or a smaller boat reaching down to rescue people to their emancipation and it shows women carrying anything that they could carry, a basket, some chickens and children. that's the largest emancipation event

but frederick douglass goes to work on him. april 9th, 1865. >> at appomattox, grant offers a very generous set of peace terms. the soldiers will all be pardoned. >> lincoln had no stomach for

or even frederick douglass, what you read books about, tons of words, a 10-year-old in me, drawn to books with pictures, >> >> there was a lot of random trivia, world geography, reading the x men as a kid, comics, a trojan horse, and picture books, such a great tool for getting information across, a lot of information, a perfect marriage and images. >> is there better work like yours for traditional longform history that cannot? >> i don't want to to the horn but there's a lot to be said, the old adage that pictures speak louder than words. as an adult this was attractive. this is how we capture people's attention. you can't judge a book by its cover but why so much attention attracting people, the same as the grocery store, so much emphasis on the visual. to dismiss it in terms of comic books or graphic novels over kids, some of the oldest forms of communication are pictures, hieroglyphics, petroglyphs, page drawings, and we should never dismiss the power and importance of pictures. >> go ahead. as an illustrator i'm curious to know how you feel about that. >> i agree the written word is

he instead agreed with frederick douglass and other abolitionists that this war should be the instrument the immediate and uncompensated emancipation is when the very first republicans to say that pretty is also the first republicans to call therefore for confiscating slaves of the rebels, one of the first to call eventually for spreading the abolition movement throughout the united states. for emancipated all slaves in the united states. that includes those who lived in the so-called loyal border states that remained within the union and the confederacy left. so one of the first to call for including black men into what were then still delete white union armies. he is one of the first to call for giving the emancipated slaves equal civil rights. and in each case argument he made was initially viewed with great skepticism but the majority of his party and in each case both his words and the intrinsic logic of the situation help to bring the majority of his party over to his point of view. he was an extremely effective leader. and of course he struggle continues after the war. >> absolute

could call it the industry and when it comes to nonfiction stuff like the panther party or even frederick douglass, these are topics that are when you read books about them, they tend to be with tons of words and not that many pictures. so i will say that 10-year-old and me is drawn to swift pictures and so that's why i'm doing this. >> with a great educational tool i know myself there was a lot of random trivia i knew about world geographies. they are a great trojan horse for teaching and people take them as just funny books or picture books but they are great for getting information across especially like our book which there is a lot of information there so it is a perfect marriage of the written word and images. >> it can give that more traditional longform history that history cannot? >> i don't want to toot the horn of this particular expression but i do think there is a lot to be said for showing people things. the old adage pictures speak louder than words and for me, even as a kid this is what i was attracted to and as an adult this is what i am attracted to. again i just keep coming back

but frederick douglass goes to work on him. others go to work on him, and over time he changes. >> the war becomes a war to abolish slavery. >> the war ends on april 9th, 1865. >> at appomattox, grant offers a very generous set of peace terms. the soldiers will all be pardoned. >> lincoln had no stomach for retribution. >> lincoln wants to win the peace as well as win the war. ♪ >> right after appomattox, lincoln appears at the window of the white house and accepts the applause of well wishers. >> crowds are gathered around the white house. there are bands playing. there's jubilation everywhere. and lincoln says, let's hear "dixie." someone in the audience says, dixie? that's a confederate song. he says, no, we won it fair and square. it's the spoils of war. let's have the music. tad even waves a confederate flag that he brought back from the front. ♪ >> the war was over, but what was the political fallout of that? >> congress approved the 13th amendment. >> black people are not leaving the country, and so what is their fate go

for over 200 years people like frederick douglass have been saying that.el the playing field and leave us alone and allow us to find out who we are as a people. we would be in a better position. defunding the police hurt minority communities. the reality probably only 3% of the people in the minor community commit most of the crime. so you are endangering -- >> laura: classen, we will have you back. i'm fascinating by this. i think you will do a great job. you are going to surprise a lot of people. thank you so much tonight. >> laura: how long will your school age kids be in masks? an ominous clue. >> unfortunate -- how fortunate are they? they will grow into it, eventually. >> laura: grow into it? from the empathy administration. that's all the time we have tonight, shannon bream and the fox news at 19 take it all from here. shane then? >> shannon: thank you very much come halfway through the week daymac halfway through the week., president biden blasting recovery can governors who are reopening businesses calling it neanderthal thinking. a live report wi