, which is a notorious place because in one of the marx brothers' movies, there's a place called fredonia. but then i went on for my graduate work to columbia. c-span: and your degree is in what? >> guest: i started out as an english teacher, and my graduate work was largely in linguistics. my first job was at san francisco state college teaching linguistics. c-span: thirteen books -- or is this the 14th? >> guest: actually it's 20 if you count the textbooks, but we'll settle for 14. c-span: just reading the liner notes. it says 13 books. which one of those 13, at least the consumer books, sold the most? >> guest: a book that i wrote with an old friend named charles weingartner called "teaching as a subversive activity". that was a book published in 1969. it was about education, and it came during those very hectic and exciting school-reform days when many people were writing books about that subject. i think it sold about half a million copies. so my name first became familiar with leaders in the field of education through that book. but obviously, in more recent years, the book "amusing