bill frenzel got that message. bill frenzel lived that kind of life. bill frenzel was that kind of member of congress. bill frenzel could be pretty sharp. i don't mean bright. i mean sharp tongue if he thought you were going off, as congressman nolan said, in the wrong direction. i'm happy to say i was never the object of that, but bill enzel wanted you to, a, be candid, be straightforward, be intellectually honest and not play games. nd he was -- in fact did the same. bill frenzel in his private life, working with brookings, continued his public life's commitment to rational, responsible governance. as congressman paulsen pointed out, i am a very big advocate it ixing our debt, fixing in many ways through the kind of policies that bill frenzel recommended. policies which say to both sides, look, we both have interests, we got to accommodate those interests but we got to accommodate a bottom line. be real, in other words. bill frenzel was a republican. i'm a democrat, but we were first americans, and i felt it a great honor to learn from bill frenzel,

the former member from illinois, bill frenzel from minnesota. so at some point, they're going to be changing. we want to be sure that when those changes occur, the leaders step up to the plate once again and pick people of the same quality and integrity. >> one question on what you just said about the national taxpayers union. i just noticed in your letters, national taxpayers union didn't support the senate office, or what was this -- >> i would note, i think one of the senate copies, there's only one difference, because one of the groups got originally left off. there's only one difference. i'll make sure you get that. the national taxpayers union, really, the only thing that they raised concern with when they were talking about the senate was travel. and i think that was because there are groups here, myself included, i think public citizen who have been in favor of eliminating privately financed travel. for senators and members of congress. that was not a position that national taxpayers was particularly comfortable taking, so they just said