i have a question regarding the fsb. i have read that even in hitler's time the person who headed up the secret service, his own secret service, schallenberg, he was collecting information on hitler to overthrow him when the opportunity came. same in the united states, you know? is we -- there is a suspicion that fbi or i like to call these so-called intelligence agencies agencies of state terrorism, and that exists in every country whether it's in russia or in the united states or anywhere else. they have probably knocked off kennedy and those kinds of things do happen, and then we saw bush sr. who was a cia chief, his son becoming a president. so that -- is there something going on to either knock off medvedev and putin together, or there may be an adversarial relationship at some point and one of them will overthrow, something like that is happening? will[laughter] or some third person like what happened to khrushchev will come and, boom, overthrow these guys? >> if you're talking about information collected by the fs

the russian initials are fsb. we will talk a lot about the fsb. and of course you see that they have grown greatly in stature and were not entirely the domestic successor but there's a foreign intelligence agency also with the initials as be are. they are a successor to the kgb and other agencies which i hope andrei soldatov and irina borogan will tell us about. so i hope we have a really fun and interesting and productive our. a little bit more than an hour with them. we are taping and filming. everything is on the record. please state your questions clearly but we are a small group has so if you have a follow-up, if you want to follow-up please let me know and i will try to be an honest broker and fair moderator. i will be the guy who starts us off. and i will turn it over and open it up. and would like to ask both of you, one of your basic arguments in this book and for your findings is that the fsb didn't become a small shrivelled piece of the kgb. it became bigger and in some ways more powerful than the kgb. can you explain how did this happe

the first was the unified fsb, and the second was gas. these two institutions played off each other to reassert russian power and also to increase their leverage particularly with the europeans and particularly with the germans. >> host: i was struck by your argument that russia in the long term is weak, but in the short term of the next decade or so may come once again to play a very significant role in terms of obstructing u.s. goals in its dealings with europe. what do you mean by that? what's the contra contradiction there? >> guest: power is relative. within the soviet union, russia is strong to them. europe is, i won't say disarmed, but militarily weak and economically strong with a heavy dependency on natural gas. there's ways the europeans can move beyond that. over the next 10 years, they're going to require russian resources. the germans have reached a point within the european union they are asking basic questions to what is the use of this? they need workers, they don't want anymore turkish workers come in. when you can't have

the first was to provide fsb and the second was gas. and these institutions played off against each other to reassert the russian power and also to increase the leverage particularly of the europeans and the germans. >> host: i was struck by your argument that russia in the long term is weak but perhaps in the short term in the next decade or so may come once again to play a very significant role in terms of of obstructing u.s. goals. what you mean by that? what is the contradiction? >> guest: power is relative. within the former soviet union, russia is strong. europe is i won't say disarmed, but certainly militarily weakened economically strong but has a heavy dependency on natural gas. there are ways the europeans can move beyond the dependency. but over the next ten years, they are going to require the russian resources. the germans have also reached a point within the european union they are asking basic questions about what is the use of this? de need workers. they don't want to have any more turkish workers. that is a problem to t

josh, fsb and lbj, they are the ones that have been somewhat and a jihadi jumbled that have realigned and are targeting the state in the west even though -- so it will be difficult for pakistan to book down its internal minutes entelechy and find a way of strategically getting away from relying upon these militants. so i see there is, in terms of bellagio. i had to come home from my students graduation. i think we can imagine really to extreme outcomes particularly with respect to what the u.s. can do, and what i see currently in the u.s., i don't know, toolbox is in creative incremental thinking that has gotten us nowhere in the bush administration or in this administration and by the way i get wise pakistanis are mad at us. this is not a mystery to me. we do things that are absolutely stupid and we do things that are morally wrong. israel, our policy towards israel for example. we can get our knickers in a twist about pakistanis being mad at us until we recognize what we do. the reality is we have supported military government more often than not. kerry-lugar-berman is a very intere