rose: would we be better off if gadaffi was in pour in libya? >> i hate to say yes. there might have been less loss of life. but certainly it's hard to imagine things could be much worse. i was in tripoli in august, 2011, and i remember seeing a huge warehouse full of weapons just on the outskirts of the city. there were shoulder-fired missiles a football field sized, you know, area full of bombs, of mortar shells, tank shells. i went back to that same plates a few days later. much of it was gone. those weapons are now in the sinai "penguins of madagascar." they are all over libya and who knows where else. we have a whole region that is just on fire with insurgeencies. on the other hand i think it would have been hard to tamp all of this down. you saw this tremendous, tremendous energy and let's say for instance, if the u.s. had not intervened f there had not been a nato intervention in 2011 in libya, i think libya at this point would probably look a lot like syria. you would have had a civil war that would have lasted longer. rose: probably with killing more people?