this is a lwa ys to gaddafi as a role model.s is always the thing, the ethical considerations versus how much money it makes. and if you aren't going to sell to one or the other, who do you not be friends with and have a relationship with? the one thing that truly scares me aboutjeremy corbyn, i am that truly scares me aboutjeremy corbyn, iam not that truly scares me aboutjeremy corbyn, i am not going to agree with him politically, there enough. i got a quote out of him, the one about when osama bin laden was taken out. i was on press tv with him and we we re i was on press tv with him and we were talking about not shooting him. isaid, we were talking about not shooting him. i said, we can agree to not agree on the death penalty. at if you can't send your soldiers into the country to kill the enemy... when you have someone say, to kill the enemy... when you have someone say, i will never press the button, that's avoidance of duty. you are supposed to be sitting in that seat at number 10. but for some people that's an honest and

you look at gaddafi's hometown, it was brutalized and neglected after the revolution. it was lacking services and governing and representation. there were tribes who welcomed the islamic state for protection. the same thing in the west. doing dealslers because there was no economy. same thing in benghazi. fortify theu resilience of libyan society to jihadist penetration? that is where civil society comes in. senator booker: so that is critical? of usf that is essential doing the civil society investment and the state department is critically able to do? dr. wehrey: i think so. and us along with local partners -- i went to southern libya to a remote town that was wracked by tribal fighting. it has fallen off the. aboutpeople there talked a computer center that was set up that connected them to the globe that gave them computer signals. unfortunately, the center was destroyed in fighting. but they look at that as commitment. >> another thing that disturbs me is that we seem to be operating under the amf from 2001. i'm curious as to whether our intervention militarily --

one of the north korean arguments featured last evening here was they took one look at colonel gaddafirid of his nuclear weapons and look what happened to him. yes. that is where they come from. the front page of they come from. the front page of the guardian, martin and this is another huge international foreign affairs. with particular reference to the so—called islamic state. affairs. with particular reference to the so—called islamic statem is good news in a sense that islamic state is being depleted, on the retreat it seems in iraq and syria and so on. that is broadly a good thing and reduces the appeal and becomes harderfor thing and reduces the appeal and becomes harder for people to go there and much less appealing and our people on the back foot seemed to not be as successful as they once were. the flip side is that people are starting to leave and from a domestic point of view they talk about britain who have been arrested by turkish authorities on the turkish syrian border having been in syria and apparently they are facing charges there and could face charges here if you ca

>> also, if my memory serves me -- >> it ends up being a war. >> on that missile strike against gaddafi it ended up hitting a tent and tilgkilling member of his family, but he stayed in power after that. >> those were manned aircraft. >> could you give us a sense of where damascus is and where the gas attack was and the key installations that might be on the -- in the bull's-eye. >> if you look at the areas under isis's control which is a different aspect of this complex battlefield, they're in red and isis support is in the lighter grayish tones. there are a couple of areas that the u.s. could choose to strike depending on the kind of message it's trying to send. the airfield, this is where it is believed that the strike originated from, the one that was carrying that deadly chemical with it. that strike, of course, taking place up here in jableh province. this is where a lot of strikes originated from. it is critical for the regime and a lot of support aircraft are there as well. if we move to the coast we have tartus where the russians have the vast majority of their a aircraft and t

they knocked out gaddafi's air defense. pulledody filled out, -- out, and it is a failed steday. it became a hotbed for recruitment. remember them asking, how long of an operation is this, they said, i don't know. how much will it cost, i don't know, maybe a billion dollars per month. it was not a good idea to go through with this unless you have to follow through. we cannot do this alone. someone brought up the question of a no-fly zone and north korea. again, you have to have a better strategy than just knocking out there defense -- there are defense system. you don't just have a failed state, you make it something worse. as a previous caller said, if you don't remember your history, you might repeat it. host: as far as syria, are there any actions in your mind that the united states should take at this point? guest: that is a good question. we put in the bill two years ago that would go after assad for the use of chemical weapons. they were using chlorine barrel bombs at the time. a lot of people have died from that. if you look at the death toll today, it is over 400,000 peop

i was thinking back to ronald reagan's attack on gaddafi where he hit them in their tents and killed member of his family. but it was certainly a paiul strike. is that an example of a successful punitive attack in late 20th century fighting? >> yes, it is in libya as was, but it's certainly not as -- it's not the fact -- it's not going to work in syria. the top of the military food chain -- everybody is located in built up areas. it's a very cosmopolitan country and so on, so what we did in libya is not going to work in syria. >> it was once said years ago that the middle east looks upon us as covering our retreat, that we're shooting at them and skipping away. that sounds like from their perspective, we're retreating. how do you impress a middle east power by hit-and-run, by hitting them and making sure you have limited exposure to yourself, and you skip back to your safe units. you skip back to your country, and you think you've whacked them, and all you've done is demonstrated you're in retreat. i don't know how it demonstrates power. if you're going to swat somebody and skip town

and president assad, unlike gaddafi, is backed by russia and iran and we need to be about the -- we need to be honest about the prospects of removing him. it isn't a no-fly zone that is going to a large this dictator. if people really want to get rid of him, if they need to russia and iran. if it is that important than ok, let's do that. but let's not imagine there is an easy way to get rid of him. caller's point about the region and just walking away -- i don't think any of us, in any way underestimate the problems we face in the middle east. ast walking away is not solution or in our interest. there is the risk of nuclear weapon proliferation. we have seen millions of refugees destabilize -- hundreds of thousands of people are being killed. energy, oil and economics -- we have a lot at stake there. so we need to keep doing what we can for the region. host: i want to thank philip gordon and john hannah. ♪ >> c-span, "washington journal," live with issues that impact you. we discussed this week's trip of rex tillerson to moscow and the future of u.s., russian relations after last week's

i remember a libyan journalist on newsnight saying libya had been destroyed after getting rid of gaddaficult to know what is going to come of this. the biggest worry to me is israel because is oil was the proxy of the us says syria isn't going to attack ships on a mediterranean but it could attack, or hezbollah could attack israel and that could start a conflagration. iran and russia do not want to see its bases in that order attacked and that goes back to the time of the soviet union. do you think this is president trump's own idea, or who is pulling the strings? he did make a 180 degrees change this week. until last week, he was saying "no interventions, america fi rst" saying "no interventions, america first" and basically being isolationist president. sub me a few days ago he, he changed his mind. it occu i’s days ago he, he changed his mind. it occurs to me from the sources i have that his son—in—law occurs to me from the sources i have that his son—in—lanarrod kushner has been to iraq this week and likely spread to other leaders and came back and said, you have got to do something.

parties have used limited force to advance national interest whether it was president reagan bombing gaddafi6 or clinton trying to get bin laden in the desert. i believe that we should, however, update the authorization to use military force against the terrorist networks and -- and have been working to try to do that, so if it's sustained, if it involves u.s. boots on the ground and lives, then, it needs to come to congress. if it's limitary military action, then not so much. chris: chairman thornberry, thank you for coming in on this holiday weekend. >> happy easter and happy passover. chris: thank you, same to you, sir. next a group to discuss the rising tension between the u.s. and north korea. plus, what would you like to ask the panel about how the president should handle provocations from kim jong un? just go to facebook or twitter on foxnewssunday and we may use >> if you've looked at what's happened over the last eight years -- weeks, compared to what's happened in eight years, you will see the tremendous difference. chris: president trump highlighting on what he believes are better

mandate, and we helped to stop the killing of civilians, which the gaddafi regime was responsible for. if there is anything we can learn from the libya operation is one thing is to implement the military operation as we did. but it is important to stabilize the country afterwards. but did not have a mandate, the whole international community, including nato to the have ahe e.u., responsibility for not being more present afterwards. and for me that underscores the message of that convention, and the importance of training local forces, enabling them to stabilize the country. dialogue with the libyan government or the government of national accord on how nato can provide support to build defense institutions to help them stabilize their own country. it is not the easiest situation, but i think that is the best thing to do, to try to work with -recognized to vomit and help them stabilize their country. then burden sharing or defense spending. oris a simple rule guideline, and that is that every nato ally should spend or % of gdp, andense 2 gdp reflects in a way the income or the wealth o

then it was gaddafi, his turn and people were saying this was a politician that should not be governingk at what is happening now in libya, it isa what is happening now in libya, it is a state of the huge question and we we re is a state of the huge question and we were talking with the italian president trying to restore the libyan state through national agreements, trying to stop the situation where the country has turned into a channel of illegal immigration, slave trade, today there was a story in the media and more recent examples, not too distant examples, the sudan president, russia declared wanted by international courts but then the obama administration decided that saddam was split into two parts. southern sudan was created. saddam has been split into parts according to the us administration. and a year ago the washington insisted on sanctions against its own brainchild. southern sudan. so this obsession with the change of regime here and there after to tell —— a totally dictator, we're fadiman examples, too many. and hardly any of them are positive. —— we have had too many ex

they look at for example, the engagement that colonel gaddafi got involved in in libya. he gave up a much smaller nuclear program, one that had not deployed any weapons, of course. and got all these promises of engagement with the west. when the moment came and his people turned against him you saw what happened. the north korean view is we are never giving it up. and the american view is we are not talking to you until you give it up the question is, what's going to give here? that's why i think we are moving toward probably as big a crisis as we saw in '94, if not bigger. >> ambassador, this is your line of work after all, are we missing something? is there something we are not pursuing? is there any new angle on this old crisis? >> i think president trump has correctly identified the role of china as the linchpin to this issue. there really suspect a military solution here. it's going to be diplomatic. and really, back in '92, under the first bush administration the north koreans figured out that their one piece of currency was their nuclear program and they have used

you have to imagine that kim jong—un is sitting in pyongyang, watching what happened to colonel gaddafife, thinking, it didn't work then, i am not going to go down that same route. they are two very different prospect. libya is an awfully lot different to north korea. the french presidential frontrunner, emmanuel macron, was in his home town in northern france today but this probably wasn't the welcome he was expecting. booing factory workers, whose jobs are under threat, booed mr macron as he arrived to talk to them, on somewhat of a chaotic visit. no such worries for his rival, the far right‘s marine le pen. this was a surprise visit to the same factory, arranged at the last minute, perhaps to hijack mr macron's appearance. ms le pen's welcome was rather different. the factory is situated in amiens. we were there last week, if you were watching. it is part of the french "rust belt", where hundreds ofjobs have been lost. ms le pen's anti—globalisation message is going down pretty well in the town. we'rejoined by agnes poirier of the french weekly magazine marianne. do you think it is p

council resolution that applied a no—fly zone to stop aids massacre by —— to stop a massacre by colonel gaddafi, it is a com plete story question not know, it is a complete basket case. —— is it a success complete basket case. —— is it a success story? assad is a monster and he has murdered so many people in that country's dreadful civil war, but to vladimir putin he symbolises stability. if you have a rushed and forced departure of assad you risk the collapse of the regime and the worry is that you have al-qaeda and isil shooting it out on the streets of damascus and that will make the last six years look like a picnic. general mcmaster gave an interview yesterday in which he said the sequencing of this was important and he said the defeat of isis should come first. that reassures you that there won't be a vacuum? yes, the ten general mcmaster is a very wise and considered officer —— lieu tenant general. he's not afraid of speaking truth to power, but the sequencing will be difficult and it won't necessarily be at the choosing of washington. as someone said earlier, america isn't pulling the s

probably a bad guy, but essentially believing the middle east would be more stable today with saddam, gaddafipt uncomfortable stability there. that was candidate trump. he seems like he's changed on this specific issue. do you think -- what do you hear, is he ready for the long haul on syria? >> i think he's had his eyes opened a little bit by the images. he does respond to pictures and images. he recognizes how awful this is. sd explicit in the rose garden yesterday, my feelings on this have changed. my position has changed. he bragged about being flexible. remember, this is a guy who criticized obama even though at the time he was urging obama in tweets to not go to syria, also to go to congress. he's basically upset with obama now for following exactly his advice four years ago. i mean, there is a lot of mixed messages you get from donald trump. there is never going to be a trump doctrine as it relates to foreign policy but i think he will defer to the adult to mcmaster, to mattis, the experienced foreign policy hands in trying to craft a response. >> brad, you and i were talking about thi

they look at for example, the engagement that colonel gaddafi got involved in in libya. he gave up a much smaller nuclear program, one that had not deployed any weapons, of course. and got all these promises of engagement with the west. when the moment came and his people turned against him you saw what happened. the north korean view is we are never giving it up. and the marp view is we are not talking to you until you give it up the question is, what's going to give here? that's why i think we are moving toward probably as big a crisis as we saw in '94, if not bigger. >> ambassador, this is your line of work after all, are we missing something? is there something we are not pursuing? is there any new angle on this old crisis? >> i think president trump has correctly identified the role of china as the linchpin to this issue. there really suspect a military solution here. it's going to be diplomatic. and really, back in '92, under the first bush administration the north koreans figured out that their one piece of currency was their nuclear program and they have use itte

we've seen in libya when gaddafi was gone, things got a lot messier. mubarak in egypt. saddam hussein in iraq. there is the post-regime change, you know. your thoughts about that. >> well, you know, we don't consider you as a secretary of state. the end result of all this is assad will never again regain the trust of the syrian people. the majority are sunni muslim. he's a minor shi'ite sect. ey're allied with christians d otrs. at the end of the day,hat faction thinks if assad loses they all get killed which may well be the outcome. so you have to have a score card to watch what's going on inside syria. kurdish interests, the turks are in there fighting against the curds. hezbollah, iranian revolutionary guards, u.s. special forces and british s.a.s., this is a mess. it's unlikely to be improved by the employment of u.s. air power. never mind getting in on the ground to try and set up safe areas. so, you know, again, my caution is let's spend a billion dollars a month on humanitarian aid for syrian refugees inside jordan and turkey and iraq and be very careful about th

," which chronicles the author's return to libya, where his father had been imprisoned by muammar gaddafi two decades earlier. and the pulitzer prize for history went to heather ann thompson for "blood in the water: the attica prison uprising of 1971 and its legacy." this is thompson speaking on democracy now! about her investigation into the decades-long cover-up about how armed state troopers raided the prison to break the standoff, firing more than 2000 rounds of ammunition, killing including 29 prisoners and 10 guards. >> for 45 years, the majority of the records for attica remain sealed by the state attorney general's office or at least very difficult to get. and the reason is that for all of the deaths at attica, no member of law enforcement was ever held responsible. so the book was the journey to figure out who had created so much trauma, what had happened in the governor's office to lead to this retaking, who were the members of law enforcement that not only shot their weapons, but indeed the highest levels of the state police who worked very hard to tamper with evidence, to conc

they see what happens to gaddafi when he went up, everyone went in and qaddafi is dead. >> that struck a note with them. to howard's point on inspection, one of the advantages that everybody had in the iran nuclear deal, whether you like the deal or hate the deal, is they hadn't built weapons yet. and we knew pretty much where all of their major production facilities were. north korea is a much more complicated state. they've got somewhere between ten and 20 weapons and they've dispersed them. we don't know the exact number. we think, but we don't know for certain where all of their production facilities are. they have never allowed inspectors to go beyond the main reactor complex north of the capital. and even if they did, finding all of these weapons and finding the production facilities in a nation as mountainous, for bidding and secretive as north korea would be quite a job. so, it's an inspection problem from hell that actually makes the iran inspection issues look relatively simple. >> howard, maybe we should just -- we tried so many things. maybe if we ignore them. if they're fo

gaddafi -- muammar statements were made that this dictator should not be in this country, that democracy should rule. we all know what is happening in isya, the statehood of libya under a big question mark. the president of the russian federation spoke to the president of italy about it. we want to move to stop the situation of this country being illegalnto a channel of migration as well as a slave trade. your colleague from the media reported on this. by the way, recent examples ,gain, the president of sudan there was a search declared on him by the international court of justice and in a few years time, the former president obama decided the country should be separated into two parts and we toe asked to give support the president so he does not go against the division of suda n. he participated in the official of division of sudan, according to the project. tabled by the obama administration. only last year my southern sudan was just only last year, southern sudan was offered to -- onlyctions imposed southern sudan was offered to have sanctions imposed. examples of when a dictator woul

right out of t the -- what happened in libya when hillary clinton was state and the arms t right that gaddafi had was transfered syria to fuel this regime change operation, that faild and ow we have generals telling trump he needs to escalate the situation in syria, which is have a significant blow-back effect on the united region and this onflict goes to show that because of the opposition russia there is no , collusion by democrats who are the trump and russian administrations. with this is, where is the evidence? assad hear is that launched chemical attacks, we heard the same thing in 2013, administration wanted to attack syria using missiles, what we don't hear, where the sxefdz from proofingomes assad's government launched a chemical attack. youou actually do research, find that throughout the entire hronology of isis taking root in iraq and syria, they have chemical weapons. so there is no proof and trump waiting blindly in a sea infested with sharks and i see no end to it. have negative ramifications for the globe and the united states as a whole. host: one critic of yesterday's includ