about, but, you know, religions, you know, take a rembrandt painting like christ crossing the sea of galilee, it's a propaganda on the heart of courage. you are supposed to look at that and remember what courage is 6789 it's complex in a work of art in terms of the qualities, but it's simple at the level of its moral, and that's a situation in which we have a hard time accepting in the modern world. how can it be simple morally and yet really complicated and noble as a work of art? we expect, you know, that's not going to be the case. >> host: although secular artists did it. >> guest: yes, yes, i mean, absolutely. you see some artist, and the greatest artists, i think, absolutely have that. the problem we have, at least, not the artists, it's the systems in which they operate. take mark rosco, fascinating artist, impulses, and i remember going to see his paintings at the gallery in london, and i wondered if what it was for. it was powerful. i looked at the caption, and still didn't know what it was about. i read books, never got the sense, and years later, i read an interview with him, and