therefore, garrison believed clem bertrand must be clay shaw.t was the extent of garrison's investigation. >> do you have enough evidence now to go to trial? >> if i answered that, i shouldn't be district attorney. >> the case he has built against clay shaw is based on testimony that did not pass a lie detector test that garrison ordered and garrison knew it. >> can you say positively that the person you knew as clay bertrand is not the person you have seen as clay shaw? >> scout's honor he is not. >> garrison started bribing witnesses, intimidating witnesses. >> he said i could be made to serve this whole nine-year sentence. or i could be cut loose right away. >> hypnotizing witnesses. >> we decided to give objectifying tools. >> would you say these methods were illegal? >> i would very say illegal and unethical. >> he had everyone and their grandmother involved in the assassination. at one time it was oil millionaires. then it was the minutemen. then it was a homosexual killing. >> yes, sir. >> you feel that homosexuality or the coercion of ho

therefore, garrison believed clem bertrand must be clay shaw.hat was the extent of garrison's investigation. >> do you have enough evidence now to go to trial? >> if i answered that, i shouldn't be district attorney. >> the case he has built against clay shaw is based on testimony that did not pass a lie detector test that garrison ordered and garrison knew it. >> can you say positively that the person you knew as clay bertrand is not the person you have seen as clay shaw? >> scout's honor he is not. >> garrison started bribing witnesses, intimidating witnesses. >> he said i could be made to serve this whole nine-year sentence. or i could be cut loose right away. >> hypnotizing witnesses. >> we decided to give him objectifying machinery to make sure he was telling the truth. >> leon. >> does leon have a last name? >> oswald. >> would you say these methods were illegal? >> i would say very illegal and unethical. >> he had everyone and their grandmother involved in the assassination. at one time it was oil millionaires. then it was the minutemen.

garrison, if the p.o.'65 how would it then be jack rue ruby's phone number? >> that's your problem or you've missed the point. >> he pointed to cia agents supporting a conspiracy. >> who's suppressing this on whose order? >> the federal government is suppressing it. >> who in the federal government? >> the administration. the administration of your government is suppressing it because they know that the central intelligence agency -- >> on whose order? >> on the order of the president of the united states. >> mr. garrison has come up with no credible evidence to support any of his theories. >> i think that it's unfortunate for the media of this country has become so hysterical for fear of what it might see that it spends a good deal of its time and energy attacking the one serious investigation. >> the results of this four months of public investigation have been to damage reputations, to spread fear and suspicion and worst of all to exploit the nation's sorrow and doubts about president kennedy's death. >

. >> i've spent hour after hour with jim garrison.detail by detail. >> the mark lane's and the conspiracy theorists all flocked initially to garrison. >> and i can report that a powerful domestic force, a force that is still part of the american structure, planned and initiated those acts that resulted in the assassination of president kennedy. >> they all thought here's a guy who's finally going to bring the case that we have been, you know, arguing about for years. >> if i seem somewhat confident, it is because our office is in its fifth year and has never lost a murder case. >> the press initiatively built garrison up, because everybody believes no district attorney in his right mind would do this unless he had something. >> arrested this evening in the district attorney's office was clay shaw, age 54, of 1313 darby street, from new orleans, louisiana. mr. shaw will be charged with participation in a conspiracy to murder john f. kennedy. >> the charges filed against me have no foundation in fact or in law. i have not been apprised

. >> i've spent hour after hour with tim garrison.>> the mark lanes and the conspiracy theorists all flocked initially to garrison. >> and i can report that a powerful domestic force, a force that is still part of the american structure, planned and initiated those acts that resulted in the assassination of president kennedy. >> they all thought, here's a guy who's finally going to bring the case that we've been arguing about for years. >> if i seem somewhat confident, it is because our office is in its fifth year and has never lost a murder case. >> the press initially builds garrison up because everybody believes no district attorney in his right mind would do this unless he had something. >> arrested this evening in the district attorney's office was clay shaw, age 54, from new orleans, louisiana. mr. shaw will be charged with participation in a conspiracy to murder john f. kennedy. >> the charges filed against me have no foundation in fact or in law. i have not been apprised of the basis of these fantastic charges, and assume that

therefore, garrison believed clem bertrand must be clay shaw.on's investigation. >> do you have enough evidence now to go to trial? >> well, if i answered that, i shouldn't be district attorney. >> the case he has built against clay shaw is based on testimony that did not pass a lie detector test that garrison ordered and garrison knew it. >> can you say positively that the person you knew as clay bertrand is not the person you have seen as clay shaw? >> scout's honor, he is not. >> garrison started bribing witnesses, intimidating witnesses. >> he said i could be made to serve this whole nine-year sentence. or i could be cut loose right away. >> hypnotizing witnesses. >> we decided to give him objectiving to make sure he was telling the truth. >> does he have a last name? >> oswald. >> would you say these methods were illegal? >> i would very say illegal and unethical. >> he had everyone and their grandmother involved in the assassination. at one time, it was oil millionaires. then it was the minutemen. then it was a homosexual killing. >> yes,

that was the extent of garrison's investigation.tor test that garrison ordered and garrison knew it. >> can you say positively that the person you knew as clay bertrand is not the person you have seen as clay shaw? >> scout's honor he is not. >> garrison started bribing witnesses, intimidating witnesses. >> he said i could be made to serve this whole nine-year sentence. or i could be cut loose right away. >> hypnotizing witnesses. >> we decided to give objectifying tools. >> would you say these methods were illegal? >> i would very say illegal and unethical. >> he had everyone and their grandmother involved in the assassination. at one time it was oil millionaires. then it was the minutemen. then it was a homosexual killing. >> yes, sir. >> you feel that homosexuality or the coercion of homosexuality was a factor in the assassination? >> at one point he had 15 assassins in dealey plaza. >> garrison announced he had discovered a code. >> he said jack ruby's unlisted telephone number appears in address books belonging to shaw and oswa

when garrison believed the story, as i did -- i was younger -- years go by, three years later garrison calls and david ferry. he is suspicious about new orleans. dismissed all the witnesses he called. three years later, he got into the case because senator russell long in georgia told him he didn't believe -- >> of louisiana. >> gears and started to read the worn commission and see the axes -- and consistencies -- garrison started to read the war in commission and see the inconsistencies. we know they had files on jim. they stole the files. they had informants on his staff. three of his witnesses died. .thers were not called subpoenas were denied, etc.. he called several members of the cia. been the head of the cia and was fired by kennedy and ran n commission. stone of thistta country. ithis case is similar. that senior showed -- when snowden was first described as a loan fame seeking narcissist, you find similarities to the oswald case. oswald was identified on that friday afternoon. he had the profile ready. sympathizer,rxist not only alienated but disliked kennedy. none of that was

. >> the commander wanted >> the commander wanted to raise a garrison flag, to raise a garrison flag, by 42 feet, large 30 feet by 42 feet, large enough to be clearly enough to be clearly visible to the armada of visible to the armada of british ships anchors in british ships anchors in the river. the river. commissions local flag commissions local flag maker she was maker she was paid paid $405.90. $405.90. that's a lot of money, that's a lot of money, today it would be almost today it would be almost $6,000. $6,000. >> she is not making a >> she is not making a flag that she thinks is flag that she thinks is going to last 200 years going to last 200 years and be in the and be in the smithsonian, she is smithsonian, she is making a flag for a fort. making a flag for a fort. how many times has she how many times has she done this before. done this before. she expects this to last she expects this to last two or three years and two or three years and then make a then make a new one. new one. >> she didn't have the >> she didn't have the luxury of working in a luxury of working in a big

these english garrison towns, with awe-inspiring walls and state-of-the-art castles, created what wasnown as "the ring of stone and iron" around the land of the welsh. they say wales has more castles per square mile than any place in europe. and most of them are english castles, built here in the 13th century by king edward to establish english rule here and subdue the feisty welsh. the greatest of edward's castles, like conwy castle, were masterpieces of medieval engineering. their towers were round -- tougher to break through with no corners to knock off. the castle-within-a-castle defense gave defenders a place to retreat and wreak havoc on the advancing enemy or just wait for reinforcements. and with sea access, they could be restocked safely from england. conwy castle has an interesting story and local guides, who hang out at the entrance ready to take you on an inexpensive impromptu tour, tell the story well. neville hortop brings this castle to life with gusto. neville: and it's a wonderful castle 'cause it's two castles in one. we are going through into the soldiers' part of t

. >> the commander wanted to raise a garrison flag, 30 feet by 42 feet, large enough to be clearly visiblethe armada of british ships anchors in the river. commissions local flag maker she was paid $405.90. that's a lot of money, today it would be almost $6,000. >> she is not making a flag that she thinks is going to last 200 years and be in the smithsonian, she is making a flag for a fort. how many times has she done this before. she expects this to last two or three years and then make a new one. >> she didn't have the luxury of working in a big auditorium, instead she worked just outside downtown baltimore. five other family members and an a servant works for six weeks straight, piecing together the flag, sometimes working by candlelight, so they could meet their deadline. >> the fabric is something that i don't think anybody here had ever handled before. sometimes i have thought that mary would say something like, i know six-year-olds that sew better than this. >> the material called bunting used to make today's flag, costs about $12,000. add in labor costs for the almost 2,000 people

fair inspector cheryl garrison. he fell onto the tracks who was in a wheelchair. she's been one of the largest contributors city wide of the 29,000 employees of the combined cherry campaign. our very own. and to lee manatello who was awarded an ward for the great work she's done. some highlights of employees that you've been able to recognize and employee recognition being important to support our employees. in terms of performance, all we have is the baseline data in terms of employee information and communications. this is on a one to five scale. we scored a 3.5 on a 5 scale. so work to do there. in terms of overall employee satisfaction, 3.36. on a 1 to 5 scale, in terms of performance planning and appraisal, a lot of work to do here. these numbers should be at 100 percent and our data shows it was 19 percent. 62 percent had performance plans for the following year, so we're on a steep projectry, but the numbers should be 100. in terms of stakeholders, we have post construction surveys and getting some external data. just a little bit in terms of finances. this

matches are continuing and focused on for the four d on monday this drama which erupted in the garrison city of rome and condi has spread to several other cities and towns to the biden's asking that the stuff live so far the tomatoes got it from a body continued to be under the security log on for the fourth day on monday. on the streets in the city audrey has its headquarters we got on friday. and solitude and peace yes russian opposition was winding its way through the bleak indeed. i'm good but it limits the scope and see some shia morning. judy got into the seminary. so call from an upside in the thick of it in the seminary was cautioned and it soon spread to the nearby growth market. one hundred shops were abducted in the photo. then people have been killed in a considered a hobby injured inside its violence. most of the casualties with two of the stampede to go to office on the edge of the stock picking skills and the shia profession. officials at the present was looking so does the violence that two of the cities of the punjab province a stronghold of prime minister nawaz sharif

is mounting over of mass death sentence handed down in bangladesh earlier this week trapped in a garrison in bangkok is falling the store so i swatched on his way his body to criticize bonds and cash after more than one hundred fifty people accused of taking part in year eight was sentenced to death the un high commissioner for human rights as a mass trial did not meet national standards. a special court in the capital got the sentence one hundred people to get anything. he tries to connect the two defendants accused of involvement in four years ago un high commissioner for human rights not the police issued a statement saying the trial was why the procedural wrangling entities including the lack of adequate and timely access to lawyers. she called for an independent investigation into how the keys were true this thing happened in february two thousand i knew it were blown over. that's right across the country seventy four people were killed including seven in the epistles. other family matters. tour has been undermined by allegations of abuses such as force confessions. human rights grou

they believe that it shows them following the woman onto garrison street where he returned. surveillanced on cameras. it does not record the actual crime going down. you see a man follow woman. they then crossed the street in the direction of the alley where the rape took place. are you serious? i mean, that is terrible. you have a lot of security. >> police believe that he pressed what was a knife to be woman's back. he ordered her to give him money she had just taken from an atm. he then rest what the woman believed to be a weapon against her back as he forced her away from wisconsin avenue. >> it is scary. >> people are generally coming and going well into the evening. >> you would not think of that. maybe your guard is down. you do not think that is going to happen. police continue to peru's the video. -- two peruse the video. thats will rethink the way they live in an area considered to be safe until a few days ago. >> i will continue to look over my shoulder. >> a number of people who live on this stretch of wisconsin avenue do have surveillance cameras. looking for mo

while on a club level world record signing garrison bale helps spanish giants right out presents their new boots in madrid the twenty four year old joined carlo on t.v. in september for an unprecedented about one hundred thirty five million dollars the wales we know has scored five goals in eleven apparency is so far and i used to get better. after the injury and that slows. i'm enjoying everything on the pitch now and i'm just looking forward to the rest of the season. and elsewhere in spain barcelona forward you know messi picked up a record third golden goose award the most the goals in europe last season the twenty six year old argentina skipper scored six to help his cattle on the side of the twenty thirteen bloody good title and the injured superstar is also in the running for a feat as ballon d'or which will be awarded in january. with that then yes. frank river is also on the short list for football's top individual award and this stunt shows one of the reasons why is the france winner and his buy in munich goalkeeping teammate manuel neuer pulled off a spectacular trick while

left in our kind of hyper modern moment when the only one really implements left in the doing the garrisons of liberty i believe that's how i describe it if you can't maintain anonymity as just a capacity right not even the illusion of privacy but there are no such things really in the end in this architecture of the press and as the consent of the governed you know you're just a population you just of an individual population being herded around led like a you know bull with a ring in your nose these are really dark times in essence but at the same time we can focus on what's left and really bolster it's a bit is all these these new tools like him what's coming out from from the pirate bay guys secure messaging more secure e-mail projects and they're being crowd funded so and it's like you said there were there is a sea change the public has shifted its opinion about this it's amazing what stone was able to do so we're going to ride this wave of anxiety and hopefully produce tools as a kind of fanfare for the common man if you want to have anonymity and financial freedom of speech tools li

[applause] believe me, jim garrison was much more of a criminal than he was a prosecutor. and there are two witnesses who you do not hear mentioned and one of them was a guy that just came out of baton rouge and he was given sodium pentothal twice and failed three polygraphs and they still put him on the stand. he told them about meeting with oswald and various things in the second witness was even better and he was an accountant from new york city and when he got on the stand i thought that back i is it. he made a tremendous witnesses about all kinds of meetings with clay shaw and oswald and all the others as well. and then he said, are you the gentleman that has sued the new york city police department and he said, indeed, i am. and what for? welcome they have been following me around and they wrote about my life for 17 years. well, that was not the best. then he says that argue the gentleman that fingerprints his daughter when she comes to visit him? and he said, i certainly am. they disguise themselves sometimes. [laughter] and he made a hero out of them in this movie.

[applause] >> jim garrison was much more of a criminal and he was a prosecutor. he had two main witnesses who you do not even here mentioned, not even their names. one of them was a guy that came out of bed ridge. he was given sodium pentothal twice. he paled three polygraphs the first week, and they still put him on the stand. clay shaw, meeting with boss walked among various things. the second witness was even better, and accounts named charley myself from new york city. and when he got on the stand i thought, boy, that guy is it. he was well dressed and articulate, and he made a tremendous witness, told about all kinds of meetings with clay shaw and oslo that all of the others. and then the defense got him and said, well, are you the gentleman that has sued the new york city police department? indeed, i am. what for? well, they have been following me around and ruined my sex life for 17 years. well, then he said, are you there gentleman that fingerprints his daughter when she comes to visit in? he said to my certainly am. the disguise themselves sometimes. [la

. >> a young woman walking on wisconsin avenue in the area of garrison street northwest. it appeared she was followed a little bit by a subject. >> wow, i'm very surprised. >> the victim just walked past this atm and was continuing down wisconsin avenue when a man came up on her from behind and placed an object against her back. >> we believe he may have had a knife. >> reporter: the suspect took the woman's cash and forced her to walk with him, side by side, as if they were a couple sharing an umbrella. they crossed wisconsin avenue right here in the middle of the block. >> she was walking on wisconsin avenue, and he came up behind her and accosted her at some point and took her off. >> he took her to this alley behind rodman's drugstore where he raped her. >> it's really frightening because this neighborhood is really nice neighborhood and i feel pretty safe. there's generally a lot of people walking around on the streets. >> reporter: police are looking at the possibility that last night's assault is related to a sexual assault that happened this summer a few blocks do

that didn't stop oliver stone from popularizing garrison and his theory in a film.the 1991 film jfk was a huge cultural phenomenon, it reinvigorated all the doubts, all the suspicions out there. belief there was a conspiracy to kill the president has polled as high as 8 0%. most recent number released by gallup friday puts it low, down to 61%, but still a majority. joining me to discuss the enduran endurance, we have walter mears with the associated press become to the table and jane hall, robert macneil, former television report and news anchor and philip shannon, author of the book "a cruel and shocking act," the secret history of the kennedy assassination. a former reporter with the new york times. philip with a book title like that, you're the perfect person to start this discussion with. first, explain in your view why people -- why is there -- so easy for people to believe there must have been more to this story than lee harvey oswald and what have you found about the truth? >> there had to be something more to the story. the warren commission, they called osw

jim garrison's investigation and the late '70s they believe it's a conspiracy because of a throuflawed great film maker, the only thing he gets right in "jfk" is the date he's killed. >> what about that? you always there thought there was a second gunman. you've been vocal about that for decades. i want to play a clip of you questioning the path of the bullet. >> is it impossible that the bullet would have gone through president kennedy, gone through governor conley and not suffered any more damage than is shown in this photograph? >> i would hesitate really to say that it's absolutely 100% impossible, but it is highly i'm probable. >> do you still have the same questions about the bullet, and do you think there was a second shooter still? >> there is no question. the single bullet theory is totally scientifically absurd. a bullet moving into kennedy's back and moving upward 11.5 degrees and exiting through the back. bullets move in straight lines. the bullet is moving from back to front, right to left and down to up. it comes out of his neck and comes out 18 to 20 inches and slams int

head down i-95 southbound just south of garrison road. travel lanes in virginia, an open, easy commute for you. up to the dulles toll road no issues in reston heading to the beltway. you are clear. aaron and eun, over to you. >>> we will see you then. washington fwing beginning to lo le christmas. >>> also ahead, held against her will for more than a decade, this morning why one of the use chase freedom at select department stores and get 5% cash back this quarter. so you can give her an even bigger surprise. activate your 5% cash back at chase.com/freedom chase. so you can. >>> back at the live desk, good morning. i'm molette green. there's unrest to tell but in thailand this morning. right now anti-government protesters in the capital have swarmed the finance ministry compound. take a look at these images. we've learned they've overrun several buildings, even cut electricity. some protesters went to other locations around the city. you can see how violent it has gotten. they snarled traffic and some schools had to be closed because of a

they didn't come in to sit back at home stations and be a garrison marine. they like the point. when you visit them in afghanistan and western pacific, you don't get questions like, what is sequester going to do to me? they know how to spell it, but that's about it. they want to know, commandant, is this the last deployment or am i going to be able to go to combat again or go to west back again? so our morale is high right now and going to stay high as long as we give them something to look forward to. the orientation to the pacific reenergized marines. afghanistan, we are coming out of there in 2014. what's left? we talk about darwin, australia, japan, guam. their eyes light up. morale in my service is high. >> an annedote. you are not going to have a reduction in force, we'll do it with attrition. we have a lot of people retiring. that struck me because that's a lot of seniority and talent and experience going out the top and we don't have a lot going in the bottom. we'll be out of balance. i spoke about that in my oral statement. general welsh mentioned kids getting bored. so

were two hundred french troops and is in this town two hundred un troops and his daughter molly and garrison. and they were taken at noon in the middle of town and everybody knew they were there because the un from an indifferent said they wouldn't fly in and so younger lot of questions that need need to be answered on this but don't i don't think journalists are gonna stop reporting. just because there are people out there in the limelight un high on testosterone who want to kill them or make a fast buck toothed news reporting because the companies won't pay for them to go there they won't insure them and because nobody really cares what goes on and on. it's a terrible thing to say. but as low as they've won three lost unless he wants to hear mike inez is the husband was spot on the use of reason to syria that there was a lot of it there still is a lot of effort to get people in their lot of companies will let their staffers go and may they say to them when they say it's a cynical they say the freelancers. when you come now. bring us the story and we'll talk to them. which means we can be r

out a plan of cooperation by which certain ratio possessed himself of west point the garrison, 20,000 pounds sterling , i think, will be achieved purchase for an object of some much importance. another example of an item from in the clintons' papers is written during the expedition in 1777. a number of items in clintons' papers are written in code, various forms with a writer and the recipient of would have amassed, piece of paper with some shape or multiple six cut from a. of having this mask, the writer would place the mask over another sheet of paper and there would right. intended message with anyone who does not have. forming gone from hands. the rebels imagine that he is don once the mask is placed over the manuscript, reiterate a similar sentiment but provide and the clintons thoughts on the matter. gone to chesapeake bay, the greatest part of the army. landed. left to command here with too small a forced to make any effectual diversion in your favor. try something at any rate. but think just that this time. he could have taken. also this letter written by charles cornwallis in

[applause] believe me, jim garrison was much more of a criminal than he was a prosecutor. and there are two witnesses who you do not hear mentioned and one of them was a guy that just came out of baton rouge and he was given sodium pentothal twice and failed three polygraphs and they still put him on the stand. he told them about meeting with oswald and various things in the new york city and who when he was on the stand i thought he was it. well-dressed. he told about the meetings and then the defense got him. they said are you the gentlemen that has sued the new york city police department? he said indeed i am. what for? he said they have been following me around and ruined by sex life for 17 years. that wasn't the best. then he said are you the gentlemen that finger prints his daughter when they visit. and he said i am. they disguise themselves. peechl people use people higs prus proor h >> we have time for two more questioners. i heard we referred to as the elder generation. >> you mentioned reconstruction of oswald taking the shot. i have motnoticed the easy shot woul

if i point out a plan of cooperation by which sir henry shall possess himself of west point, garrison, et cetera, et cetera, cetera, et cetera, 20,000 pounds sterling book we purchased for an object of so much importance. another item from henry clinton's papers is during 1777. they are written in code in various forms for the right of the recipient both would have a mask, a piece of paper with some shape or multiple shapes cut from that and both having this now, the writer would place the mask over another sheet of paper and would rate the intended correspondence in the shape of that opening. and then i'm a meticulously construct a letter around it so that in the case where this letter would be captured by the enemy, the actual intended message would be. to anyone who doesn't have an doesn't know to use the mask question. in this case, william hollis, commander of the british army at this point is taking his troops to philadelphia, rather than providing support to john burgoyne in north albany. this letter from henry clinton is informing of this unfortunate circumstance and that he i

private john a contraband cook in the 85th new york infantry was garrison at plymouth. he was described on his military papers as hazel eyes with light hair, a 21-year-old mill lot tow captured and detected as such and center along with the yankee captives to andersonville, where unfortunately he died six months later from the ranches of the prison. of course when the confederate reported his death no mention was made of his being colored. but his racial identification already was on his union papers. consequently private john is the possibly only known runway slave buried at andersonville. a fact i revealed to a representative from andersonville when attended his presentation. at first dubious, he was able to locate private john on his andersonville data base. later i received from andersonville a photograph of john's grave site 5045 i had lies between white two white soldier and not in a colored section. another color soldier of interest is private thomas hemming. son of madison hemmings. son of sally u hemmings of month cello. in his memoir published in 1873, and the

martha: ronnie garrison tweets, i don't know, i don't think i know, obama lied about, you know what?l turn this over, she says, i don't think, i know. sometimes twitter punctuation is difficult. obama lied about keeping our insurance and doctor and because i lost both and it needs to be repealed. bill: gary rights about this. the answer would take more than 140 characters. that is all twitter gives you. martha: tweet longer. there you go. keep those coming. send them to us @marthamaccallum and @billhemmer. we're watching them throughout the show. bill: they roll in, just like one after the other after the other. martha: people are not happy. bill: 10 minutes past. problems pile up for the site, prominent democrats are starting to get worried. starting? lanny davis says it is time to start over. >> everybody has to look at facts and let the facts drive you, not ideology drive the facts. there are a couple things we need to do to hit the reset button to try to fix this, rather than give up. bill: so a democratic aide even saying, quote, this could be the demise of the democratic party?

because you could argue someone like garrison is taking a morale position. what about positions that are not absolute? when are you pragmatic? that is when lincoln comes in. he was willing to compromise and that is why people thought he was slow with regard to emancipation but he was working slowly so you could get a real lasting piece and abolish slavery. so it is sometimes pragmatic, sometimes work, sometimes necessary and sometimes so floridflac flac flacid and meaningless. so when you have a contested election, and we have an interesting moment in history where the poplar vote wasn't won but many people in the south were not allowed to vote. so the compromise was to get him into office as long as he pulled out the troops. so we are debating the issues today. and there are no easy answers for them. >> you mentioned lincoln's bottomlessness and i was wondering if you could say little more about that in terms of the evolution on his views of slavery. and given the comment all times are messy when you look at them in the present, what kind of perspective doe