gary herbert of utah is among the republicans from utah who says we should be using the debt ceilingleverage to cut spending. >> he's here to make the case. proponents like yourself say what other leverage would they have to extract some spending cuts from the democrats, but there are those who feel it's irresponsible to use the debt ceiling as a leverage point of some kind. what do you say? >> well, i think it's absolutely irresponsible that continue to spend like we're spending in washington, d.c. we've gone from borrowing 40 sent out of every dollar we're spending to now at 42 cents of every dollar we're spending and no end in sight. that's the irresponsibility. i think it's unfortunate and really disheartening that we don't -- that we have this even confrontation coming up. why don't we see some leadership out of the democrats and out of president where they say we understand we've got to have spending cuts and actually propose some. they have got some revenue enhancements already. we don't have to have a confrontation. just propose some spending cuts that make some sense, some e