deal with that and people told me that mccarthy become vice president, he was the second choice, gene mccarthy, that he would have been just been basically would have murdered him. it would have been awful. >> where were you born? >> minneapolis, north minneapolis. >> where did you go to school? >> in north minneapolis high school, i left -- i -- maybe a month after high school, i left with a road band, on the road with a rock 'n' roll band for seven years. >> what were you doing? >> plays bass and traveled a lot, and played music throughout my life really and did a lot of other things and then went back in the '90s, in my 40s went through college and went right through a master's program at hamlin, i just decided to go back. kids were getting older. >> how many documentaries have you produced in your life? >> well, i worked on two for court tv, in 1996 i was an associate producer to another producer. then i did one -- i co-produced one for hgtv which was called restore america with bob villa and he went around different states and did restoration projects. the first two for hgtv were the tria