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president obama's director of the national economic council gene sperling will join us next. >>> and later, what president trump doesn't know about pocahantas. i'm all about my bed. this mattress is dangerously comfortable. when i get in, i literally say ahh. america loves the leesa mattress. we have more five star customer reviews than any other mattress of its kind. this bed hugs my body. today is gonna be great. order now and get $125 off. plus, a free pillow worth $75. and free shipping too. go to buyleesa.com today. >>> kill the bill! kill the bill! >> mr. chairman, the ayes are 12 and the nays are 11. >> the bill is reported out. >> the republican tax cut bill passed a procedural vote in the senate budget committee today as protesters inside the room shouted "kill the bill." two republican senators who have publicly threatened to oppose the bill ron johnson and bob corker voted yes in the committee today. the vote came after president trump visited capitol hill and begged republican senators to support the tax cut bill. joining us now gene sperling, former director of the natio

gene sperling. he worked as assistant to the president for economic policy under bill clinton and barack obama. gene, i realize we still have limited information. but from what you've read and learned so far, what sticks out to you most? >> i think one of the things that should stick out to everybody the most is let's remember how this started. it's extraordinary. they said they were going to plan a bill that was going to increase the deficit and debt by $1.5 trillion. i never saw that in my 25 years. and they really can't make it work. they can't live within a $1.5 trillion deficit increase. they have to sunset provisions. the reason they were thinking of that 401(k) change was they needed a gimmick. so one that should strike people is when you're going to increase the deficit by $1.5 trillion, who's going to ultimately pay for that? when you look at the rest of their budget, you see there's almost $2 trillion in medicare and medicaid cuts. when you're talking about the impact on middle class famili

for more on washington's tax reform efforts, we're joined by gene sperling, former national economic director to presidents clinton and obama and maya macguineas. president of the committee for responsible federal budget welcome to both of you gene, as ylan reported, they are keeping the top tax bracket where it stands at 39.6% and phasing out the estate tax gradually. does that mean we could see more democrats support it >> i don't think it's even a close call i mean, yes, it's better that they're keeping a top rate, if that happens but they're still going to get rid of the estate tax and just to be clear, that only helps the tiny number of people who have an estate over $11 million couples that have an estate over $11 million. think of that. even if you were going to leave $10.5 million to your heirs, you right now pay zero taxes so this is -- this is still a tax cut that's going to give over $200 billion just to estates over $11 million as you just mentioned on the show, you're still trying to afford a pass-through rate which in a lot of ways doesn't make as much sense because ove

reporter: gene sperling says that the tax plan costs $1.5 trillion. it is a deficit hole. .e says it wasn't justified mr. hassett: i respect him a great deal and consider him a friend but i disagree. here is the way i think about it and what i would say to him. if you look at the joint tax committee score in the 10th year they say the tax bill cost $170 billion. if you look at the cbo projection to gdp, in the 10th year the gdp is $28 trillion. the amount of deficit relative to gdp any 10th year is only .6% . it does not take a lot of economic growth to cover that whole by the 10th year. the idea that right now we have the highest corporate tax on earth, generating almost no revenue because people avoid the tax by moving factories to ireland. if we fix that and make the u.s. an attractive place again, it will blow a hole in the deficit, it is not economically rational. the joint tax committee score says what it says, and i respect the factionalism of the staff, but the oecd has a study that says the u.s. and corporate tax face is on the wrong side of

gene sperling, who was once in your position in another administration, says that this tax plan costs $1.5 trillion, and it's a deficit hole. he says that, basically -- [inaudible] just paraphrasing his tweet, he said it basically doesn't justify that cost for 100 million households. >> well, you know, i respect gene a great deal and consider him a friend, and i disagree with him about that. and and i'm sure we'll at some point have a chance to talk about that. but here's the way i think about it and what i would say to gene if he was here, that if you look at the joint tax committee score in the tenth year they say that the tax bill costs about $170 billion. if you look at the cbo projection of gdp, in the tenth year gdp's about $28 million. so the -- $28 trillion. it doesn't take a heck of a lot of economic growth to cover that hole by the tenth year. and so the idea that right now we have the highest corporate tax on earth generating almost in revenue because people avoid the tax by moving factories to ireland, that if we fix that, if we repair it and make the u.s. an attractive pl

gene sperling, kim clausing and others have gone through the economics of this, and it would make the situation a lot worse compared to even today in terms of these incentives. so the bottom line is in addition to this being a $1.5 trillion tax break for big multinational corporations, paid for and financed by folks in the middle, which even after you see the middle-class families pay more, results in a $1.5 trillion additional -- addition to the debt, but even after all that, after the big tax giveaway to big corporations, it adds an incentive for them to add insult to injury for them to move their businesses and factories offshore. so, mr. president, i hope that we will take a big step back, stop rushing a bill through as a matter of political imperative. we need to get this right. we should have hearings. we should have folks from all different walks of life, and folks who will be impacted by this bill in many different ways come and testify to congress about this bill, and then let's get together on a bipartisan basis and actually do something that works for the american people, n

senior economic adviser of the trump campaign and gene sperling. okay.tart with you. john harwood asked the question i thought so well. he basically did the math. add up the business tax cuts and the estate tax, it's $1.2 trillion. then the cuts for individuals, regular americans and you get $300 billion. that's four times more going to rich people and corporations than to regular americans. that's how he phrased the question. let me play the operative answer from gary cohen one more time. >> $60,000 earner, family of four is paying less than $500. we cut their taxes significantly. you can't go much further in the tax system. >> really, steve? >> well, it is true, erin, that if you look at the tax system today, it is highly progressive. we have one of the most highly progressive tax systems in the world. people make less than $40,000 aren't paying much income tax today. one of the things we do in this plan, erin, millions of additional americans will take their income tax liability to zero. if you are -- let's take a family that makes $85,000 a year. in

. >> gene sperling who was in your position before said the tax plan could $1.5 trillion and it's a deficit hole. he says basically paraphrasing, it doesn't justify that cost for 100 million households for a tax increase. >> i expect gene a great deal and disagree with him about that. i expect we'll have a chance to talk about that. here's the way i think about it and what i would say to gene if he was here. if you look at the joint tax committee score in the tenth year that they say that the tax bill cost about $170 billion. if you like at the gdp, it's $28 billion. so it's .6%. it doesn't take a lot of economic growth to cover that hole by the tenth year. so the idea that right now we have the highest corporate tax on earth generating almost no revenue because people move to ireland. if we fix that and repair it, that it will blow a hole in the deficit, it's not rationale. i know the score says what it says and i respect the professionals, but the fact is the oecd that has a study that says that the u.s. and the corporate tax base is on the wrong side of the curve. we have such a high cor

and as gene sperling, one of our favorite people tweeted earlier tonight, it takes some real talent toa bill that adds $1.5 trillion or more to the debt while also increasing taxes on 50% of americans, 75% of middle class people. this is a horror story of a bill and all those people undecided including bob corker, of course, said one point flatly he would not vote for any tax bill to add a dime to the deficit ought to be voting no. >> josh barrow, what you see as the pressure points in the bill, the thing that could turn some no votes on republicans? get them to vote no. is the deficit going to do that? >> well, it is different concerns for different senators. you heard flake, corker, mccain and even langford from oklahoma with concerns of the deficit affects. murkowski and collins are concerned about the repeal of the individual mandaten affect the health insurance markets. collins also has other concerns and thinks the corporate tax cut is too much of a cut and protect the deduction for state and local taxes paid and lee pushing for a child credit for people with a lower income. the

i want to talk about it with grover norquist, the president for americans for tax reform and gene sperling, former director of national economic council for presidents clinton and obama. grover, you first. the plan is out and so are the knives. so let's go over a couple of the highlights here. the corporate tax rate is slashed from 35% to 20%, a very expensive cut. and the plan also cuts tax rates for individuals, reducing seven brackets to four. what's your response to the criticism that this is a gift for -- to corporations disguised as a cut for the middle class? >> well, first of all, when you don't take money from somebody, you didn't give it to them. you actually let them keep the money they earned. and there's not a cost to tax cuts. a tax cut is a pay increase. so you have to decide whether you're standing in the feet of the government or the american people. and lower taxes are better for the american people because they get to keep the money that they earn. the president obama said he was going to bring the corporate rate down because he realized that we're at 35%. socialist chin

i think gene sperling, if you want to know why it's not popular, put something out a few days ago explainingthe senate bill, that 65 million people making under $100,000 would either get a tax increase, this is the senate version, or a tax decrease of $100 or less. so that's why you're not seeing all these people saying, oh, this is so great for me. they see it as a shift. but i'm talking as someone that knows we have to bring that corporate tax rate down. there's got to be a way that we do it that's more of a compromise that what the bill is. >> so i take that as a long no. >> first of all, i mean, i'm going to give a preface and try to give you a shorter answer. one, at 23 and in debt, 100 basis points add about $150 billion to $160 billion in interest payments. that's more than we pay at the department of education. $1.5 trillion. people believe there's going to be all this growth, put a trigger in there that would snap back some of the rates if we end up driving up the debt that much. that alone adds $250 billion of additional debt service over the next decade. to me, whether the rate is

. >> gene sperling saying this tax plan costs $1.5 trillion and it's a deficit hole. this is in a tweet. just paraphrasing his tweet. he says basically doesn't justify that cost for 100 million households for tax increase. >> well, you know, i respect gene a great deal and consider him a friend and disagree with him. and i'm sure at some point we'll have a chance to talk about that. but here's the way i think about it and what i would say to gene if he was here. if you look at the joint tax committee score in the tenth year they say the tax bill cost about $170 billion. in you look at gop it's about $28 trillion. so the amount of deficit you are talking relative in the tenth year is it only .6%. doesn't take a whole lot of economic growth to cover that hole by the tenth year. so the idea now we have the highest corporate tax on earth generating almost no revenue because they avoid it by moving it it ireland. if we fix that and make america attractive, and blow a hole. it's not economically rational. and i know the score says what it says and i respect the professional

perhaps we'll cobble it together but there's real issues here, i think gene sperling, if you want to know why it's not popular put something out explaining the senate bill that 65 million people making under $100,000 would either get a tax increase -- this is the senate version -- or a tax decrease of $100 or less so that is why you're not seeing people saying "this is so great for me." they see it as a shift. i'm talking about somebody taking the corporate tax rate down that is more of a compromise. >> should i take that as a long no? >> okay. >> i'm going to give a preface and then a shorter answer. 100 basis point increase in interest rates ads about $160 billion a year in additional debt payments. that's more than we spend federally at the department of education, department of homeland security together. this $1.5 trillion and if you've got -- if people believe there will be this growth, put a trigger in there that would snap back some of these rates if we don't -- if we end up driving up the debt that much. that and a loan adds $250 billion of additional debt service over the n

. >> gene sperling in another administration says that the tax plan, it be historic costs $1.5 trillion and a deficit and says this is basically paraphrasing the tweet, he says, it basically doesn't justify that cost for 100 million households for a tax increase? >> i respect gene a great deal and consider him a friend and disagree with him about that. i'm sure we'll have a chance to talk about that. but here's the way i think about it and what i would say to gene if he was here. if you look at the joint tax committee score in the tenth year they say the tax bill cost about $170 billion. look at the cbo projection and gdp, in the tenth year, gdp, $28 trillion. the amount of deficit talking relative to gdp in the tenth year, it doesn't take a lot of economic growth to cover that hole by the tenth year. the idea that right now we have the highest corporate tax on earth. generating almost no revenue because people avoid the tax moving factories to ireland. if we fix that, repair it, make the u.s. an attractive place again it's going to blow a hole in the deficit. it's just not economically

operations would work towards zero liability of their offshore profits was sdridescribed bine gene sperling when he said the more an american company moves its companies to countries with tax rates or higher, other countries who are seen as america's economic competitors, the more that company can shift profits to tax havens without paying tax on those profits and the more u.s. companies already take advantage of tax havens, the bigger incentive they have to offshore operations to other advanced countries. the provision of this republican plan encourages companies to blend income from low tax countries with that from higher tax countries, completely avoiding paying money to the u.s. government. we know that from the analysis that we have had previously before this committee that currently, about $100 billion a year is being avoided in taxes. each time that we have tried to address that in the past, such as when companies renounced their american citizenship and decided to move abroad, each time we tried to plug the loopholes, there's been resistance. there's been objection. there are been n

. >> gene sperling who was once in your position in another administration says that this tax plan, be it historic, costs $1.5 trillion. and it's a deficit -- he says basically this is in a tweet, just paraphrasing his tweet, he says it basically doesn't justify that cost for 100 million households for a tax increase. >> well, you know, i respect gene a great deal and consider him a friend i disagree with him about that i'm sure we'll at some point have a chance to talk about that here's the way i think about it, what i would say to gene if he was here if you look at the joint tax committee score, in the tenth year they say the tax bill costs $170 billion look at the cbo projection of gdp, in the tenth year gdp is $28 trillion the amount of deficit you're talking relative to gdp in the tenth year some .6%. doesn't take a heck of a lot of economic growth to cover the hole by the tenth year so the idea that right now we have the highest corporate tax on earth, generating almost no revenue because people avoid the tax by moving factories to ireland, that if we fix that, if we p repair it,

healthy obligations would work toward a zero liability on the offshore profits was described by gene sperling the former director of the economic council when he said the more an american company moves it moved its opero the countries that have tax breaks of 20% or higher those that are seen as america's economic competitors, the more the company can shift profits this tax havens without paying to the prophets and the more u.s. companies take advantage, the bigger the incentive they have to offshore obligations to other advanced countries. the provision of this republican plan encourages companies to plan the income from low tax countries with data from higher tax countries completely avoiding paying money to u.s. government. we know that from the analysis that we had previously before the committee that currently about $100 billion a year is being avoided in texas. each time that would have tried to address that in the past when companies renounce their american citizenship and decide to move abroad, each time we try to plug the loopholes there's been resistance, there's been objection, ther