and i guess -- i don't think they ever will. >> george conway, thanks very much. i want to bring in our senior legal analyst, elie honig, author of "untouchable: how powerful people get away with it." obviously the special counsel would like these two codefendants to cooperate. would they still be able to get to work out some sort of a deal -- if oliveira suddenly woke up and realized the trouble he's in, and was willing to, could he get a deal? >> absolutely, yes. people can cooperate at any time. from a prosecutor's point of view, the earlier the better. i've seen people cooperate not even on the eve of trial, but during trial. >> there was this 24-minute phone call between the former president and the guy who worked at mar-a-lago. >> right. >> in advance of him going down and trying to erase these tapes. >> right. and even if they don't have the content of that phone call -- it doesn't appear it was recorded -- just the fact of a 24-minute phone call really tells you something. >> but if he would cooperate, he would tell what was on that phone call. >> question

served as special counsel house democrats during the former presidents purse first impeachment, and george conway, contributor to the washington post. >> george, i want to start with cnn reporting the trump team is looking for evidence or witnesses that they are unaware of that may been cooperating or the special counsel may have because the potential charges listed in the target letter suggest to them a bigger case against trump than they were expecting. does that surprise you? >> it doesn't surprise me that there would be a big case brought against donald trump. i think that's the way this whole investigation has been pointed. that's direction it has been pointed out for a long time, and i think his conduct is critical in any number of ways in regard to the incitement of the insurrection but more importantly i think they're gonna focus on the electors that in tempted to influence electors and mike pence. i don't think that it is surprising that there is such a big case. they may be caught off guard in terms of the timing. they may have thought, oh, fani willis, they expected her to go first for

george conway, conservative -- and contributor for the washington post. george, i want to start with the cnn reporting that the trump team is looking for evidence or witnesses that they are unaware of who might have been cooperating, or that the special counsel might have. the potential charges listed in the target letter suggest to them a bigger case against trump than they were expecting. does that surprise you? >> it does not surprise me that there would be a big case brought against donald trump. i think that's the way this whole investigation has been pointed, that's the direction it's been pointed out for a very long time. i think his conduct is critical in a number of ways with regard to the incitement of the insurrection, and more importantly, i think that they are going to be focusing on the electors who attempted to influence mike pence. i don't think that -- it is surprising that there's such a big hit and they might be caught off guard in terms of the timing. they might have thought that fani willis, they expected her to go first for a long tim

. >> george conway, trump's codefendant still has to enter a plea. if you were advising him, what d >> i would tell him to plead guilty and cooperate with the government. the fact that he was talking to somebody who then refused to assist him in destruction of the videos, erasing the server, deleting the server as the boss had asked for, i think is very, very damning testimony. it seems to me that he should have followed the example of this i.t. person who told him, we can't do that. we'll see. i think at this point, he ought to cooperate, the problem he has, there's so much evident get donald trump and walt nauta, he doesn't bring that much to the table. i've never been a prosecutor. i would rather have the guy on the stand saying, yes, the boss called me for 24 minutes after we got that subpoena, and he wanted me to get rid of everything. if he testified to that, it will be like the 15th thing that makes me think that they have donald trump debt to rights on this. >> in fact, even when a case appears strong, prosecutors wants to bolster their case

i wand to play this sound from george conway on mark meadows. >> i also think the last possibility to me has always been the most intriguing, which is there are -- are there people who are cooperating? we have seen some very strange quietness from, for example, mark meadows. i just have the feeling something is going on there. i mean, he's someone who ought to be every bit as exposed as donald trump. yet he's been so quiet and it just seems like there's something up with him. >> joyce, i don't know if silence means guilt. i don't know if silence mean he's trying to lie up his life for a long time in jail in a jumpsuit. i don't know, but is there something to this, the fact that one of the main conspirators, somebody who was intimately involved in the process at least legally trying to overthrow the 2020 election, that he hasn't been on the talk circuit, that we haven't heard that much. we know he's testified, but he's been kind of quiet. >> he's been awfully quiet, and i think george is an astute observer here. mark meadows is someone who in some ways makes his living by promoting him

george conway, trump got this target letter earlier in the week but investigators want to hear from more, including bernie kerik, who worked closely with rudy giuliani. what does that tell you? >> well, i don't think it necessarily tells us that there won't be an indictment of donald trump soon. we just don't know. we don't know what exactly the special counsel is doing. i think the fact that we have heard from trump, and i assume that's accurate, that there -- it has been a target letter issued to him, tells us that we shouldn't have -- we won't be waiting that long for trump to be indicted. that said, it doesn't mean that the special counsel has to stop investigating. in fact, it makes sense for the special counsel to keep looking for evidence, even if he thinks he has enough already. >> you pointed out, george, that mark meadows has been quiet, despite his legal exposure in this case. do you think he's actually cooperating with the special counsel? >> again, there's no way of knowing, but it is passing strange that two years ago he was leading the charge for trump 2024. he showed up i

we obviously don't know that yet, but i share the views that george conway, and other, is that mr.arly given his closeness to the presidents, in the presidents and/or circle, and the days after he left the white house. this is at least suspicious, if not -- >> while one of the looming questions is still the possibility of what this could lead to. i think if there are convictions, even possible jail time. here is the presidents response that notion. >> for example, they do say, jack smith says, okay, i'm going to put donald trump in jail. >> i think it's a very dangerous thing to even talk about, because we do have a tremendously passionate group of voters. i think it would be very dangerous. >> you know, hannah, earlier this hour, sarah matthews was particularly concerned about that comment. how do you interpret it? >> we have seen how influential donald trump's words are on his followers. we saw it on january 6th. if he says to do something, or if he implies something, or if he retweet something, his followers will follow his command. right, it wasn't until he told people at the c