sir george , george howarth. sir george, welcome to the show.o time and time again we heard it there no increases in taxation . and yet increases in taxation. and yet that's precisely what's going to happen on october the 30th. >> well , i happen on october the 30th. >> well, i don't think was in any doubt during the general election action that the pledge made on sue holderness was that it wouldn't be increased. for what? for people who are in work. and so i don't think there was any commitment that it wouldn't be increased to employers. so i think, to be honest, you know, it's a bit of a fuss about nothing . and a fuss about nothing. and certainly i don't think it is a break with the manifesto pledge. also, we don't even know whether it's going to happen yet . it's going to happen yet. >> okay. but it's much fuss about nothing. you you would say , about nothing. you you would say, but we've got a clip where rachel reeves actually in 2021, blasted the conservative party for proposing to rise national insurance on employers. let's take a little

i'm joined in tonight's endeavour by sir george howarth, former labour member of parliament and junior tony blair, and lord monckton, hereditary peer and former conservative political adviser . so, lord monckton, who adviser. so, lord monckton, who do you think makes the last two? >> i think you've got it absolutely right. and after all, do you really want jenrick to go through , given that i think he's through, given that i think he's asked for your retirement hasn't he? he has. >> i mean, fat chance of that. i'd say . i'd say. >> so i think it's generic that's going to get the retirement. and i think the other two will go through and i think it probably will be cleverly that gets it. i agree with you as to the speeches that the party conference, he was clearly the man who had the presence of a potential prime minister . and the others remind minister. and the others remind me of a ballot in the labour party a few years ago where there were two candidates, michael foot and ted short, and the ballot paper, in a wonderful cartoon in the spectator, which just said foot short, one labour