the genius of george mckenna -- george kennan was he said we need to understand what the soviets were what race russia about, what did the soviets wa want. unfortunately, the united states wasn't very keen on getting involved in pakistan in the beginning and didn't have any pool of experts about pakistan pakistan's. most of them were people of gandhi that like india and didn't actually found the idea of pakistan rather unrealistic. many of them compared it to the pakistan poundage compared to jefferson davis by some people in the american media. but once pakistan was out to become a reality, the british suggested to the americans that they should activate palestinian leaders and develop. as you know, we are really hospitable people. pakistan's problems -- pakistan was about to get one third of british india military. but only 17% of the sources to need it wasn't going to have a vibrant economy and it didn't have the means to pay for its own military. they brought about pakistan's own future and they value the nation together to be. but who would pay for the military. they said the pak

george kennan clashed violently with foster dulles. foster fired him from the state department. kennan was saying, let's take this doctrine of containment and wait the soviets out. ultimately, their system will fall. foster dulles hated the idea of containment. he said, we need a policy of rollback. we are going to push the communists back. but of course he never did that. >> here is a communist in our hemisphere who is still alive today. this is from 1959. fidel castro. >> why have there been so many executions across cuba without open free trials? >> not so many. >> how many? i don't know exactly, but two or three dozen. criminals. i think that justice is needed for the happiness of the country. interviewed by stephen noland of cbs back in 1959. what impact did allen dulles have on that situation there? >> the idea that a radical leader could emerge so close to the american shores was terrifying for the american government. the idea that they could simply say, castro is doing what he wants. he is very popular and there is no need for us to be hostile to him -- this was before h

because i found it very interesting that we talked early in your book about george kennan. he was somebody who maybe didn't have such delusions and he could not see the value of pakistan to the united states and he, in fact, want to make clear to the pakistanis that they should not pay an inflated hopes to the u.s. and i think that there was some contrast between what he thought of what somebody else like john foster dulles, when he was secretary of state in the 1950s thought. and he did think that the u.s. could sort of by pakistan and their loyalties. and if they just provided military aid, that they would just develop the same strategic interests in the u.s. sorties into the counselor and these differences that has anything really changed? >> we come to the subject of change and what has not changed. so when they came to the united states in 1950, he said, you know what? you have realistic expectations and you really want military assessment and we have no interest in fighting and that's not what we want. you have a totally realistic expectation of aid from the u.s. and

those american delusions because i found it very interesting you talked earlier in your book about george kennan, that he was somebody who maybe didn't have such delusions, that he could not see the value of pakistan to the united states and he in fact wanted to make clear to the pakistanis that they should not panic inflated hopes to the u.s. i think there was some contrast between what he thought and what somebody like john foster dulles when he was secretary of state in them mid-1950s thought and he apparently did think the u.s. had died pakistan's loyalties that the u.s. provide enough military aid to pakistan would develop the same strategic interest is the u.s.. so what do you think accounts for these differences and has anything really changed? do we still have the same debates going on? >> guest: we will get to what has changed and not change in a minute but let's go to the beginning. i came to the states -- kennan came in 1958. he said you have unrealistic expectations. we have no interest in you fighting india. you have totally unrealistic expectations of what amounts of data you want