the gilbert stuart -- >> the gilbert stuart portrait.d so, she knew exactly what she was doing. and as i said before, i think writing about it, she knew what her place in history was going to be. >> catherine allgor, are you right about the fact that even this was symbolic because it was a copy of a painting, but she understood that the british couldn't be seen burning -- katherine: exactly. yes. and, in fact, when you talk about -- you're trying to -- as a historian, trying to find, well, was she really as symbolic as we say? sometimes it's very instructive to look at their enemies. so admiral cockburn framed all of his threats toward washington as mrs. madison. he was going to come and dine at mrs. madison's table. he was going to make his bow at her drawing room. he was going to parade her through the streets. he's not attacking james madison in rhetoric, he's attacking her. so we know she really was a kind of public figure. and, in fact, when he got to the white house and she wasn't there, he took things of hers including the cushion