jonathan gilliam is a retired fbi agent. john yang was just telling us at 8:47 apparently is sundown. that's about an hour 40 from now. how crucial without risk of casualty, without risk of this guy getting away how crucial to tind find him in this hour and a half. >> probably not as crucial now. because they definitely know this guy is here he's in this closed area. i'm sure they have night vision probably thermals out there. and the amount of manpower that they have had to spread out now because of all these different leads that they've had can now, you know congregate on this one area. so the chance of him getting away and the guys that i've talked to that are out there, they're pretty confident that he's going to come down tonight. now, whether or not he you know lays the weapons down and comes out willingly or decides to go out in a blaze of glory is going to be up to him. >> how dangerous do you thing the situation is right now? >> it's extremely dangerous for him, it's extremely dangerous for law enforcement as well.

jonathan gilliam. matthew horace we'll continue our conversation, even though there's been no contact with the suspect according to police still unclear what it means about the demise of the alleged gunman. authorities are thinking that he's dead but moments ago, an hour hour and a half ago, where police say the alleged gunman cut off negotiations and so contact was severed at that point. so we're going to continue to watch the situation here with these live images. of this armored vehicle being surrounded by authorities as well as a robot, more live coverage. when we come back. illuminate dullness lift sagging diminish the look of dark spots and smooth the appearance of wrinkles. high performance skincare™ only from roc®. laura baker is about to refinance her home. her daughter lilly is about to spell the word "scary" for the first time. neither is afraid. buy in. quickenloans/home buy. refi. power. new york state is reinventing how we do business by leading the way on tax cuts. we cut the rates on pe

let's talk about this with an nypd detective, harry houck and jonathan gilliam. still with me is rick burt, who filmed this from atop his apartment building right across the street there from dallas headquarters. harry, let me begin with you. just how do you think the police handled the situation? it's miraculous that no one was even shot at all and they pursued him on this chase while also having to keep a very close eye afterwards on that rigged van. >> right. i think the dallas police department acted admirably. when they first started taking fire from this van, the police officers are trained to take cover immediately so that saved the lives of the officers when they tried to -- in that one car as you can see many bullets, as you are seeing that here right now. and you heard all the gunfire going on. not only was he probably shooting but the police officers were also firing back. then once the chase ensued you know and the vehicle was -- had stopped, this is a call for why we need the military equipment that we are getting from the government that 50 caliber

joining me now to discuss jonathan gilliam. thanks so much for talking with us jonathan. first off, are you surprised by how much david sweat is saying so soon after he was captured? >> i'm not surprised because i think he was in such a miserable place in his life over the past couple of weeks that you know good interrogate torors are going to take the environment and make him feel welcome. believe it or not, that's what works. not go in there and just bust his chops. you want to go in there and show him it's a no-win situation for him. if he cooperates the rest of his life could be affected by his cooperation. >> he's already going to spend the rest of his life behind bars in solitary confinement. what could the bargaining chip be? >> it could be an extra 30 minutes out of solitary confinement. it could be time off from solitary confinement. but i really think it's in the prison's best interest or the investigators' best interest to work with him to get the full story. he may be the guy that escaped, but the overall corruption that is possibly going on in here is the rea

. >> i want to believe in matthew who are ras horace a 20-year-old veteran and jonathan gilliam. now that david sweat is now on his own, do you have a much better chance of getting him, locking him in now that he doesn't have a partner in crime? >> i think even more than the fact he doesn't have a partner in crime. let's start with that. he doesn't have a partner in crime. they can't take shifts to sleep or get any rest. even more than that the fact is what happened yesterday alerted law enforcement as to 100% the specific area where they were at. besides the cabin where they were their dna was found. this is the second time they have had definitive proof that they are in this location. they were able to respond quicker and now they pretty much have him pinned in at least we hope so. i just wouldn't be surprised if within the next 24 hours he doesn't get caught or they don't have a shootout. he is going to start getting tired pretty soon. >> obviously, getting very tired and very weary. what do you think he has been doing to be so elusive for all this time evading police? >> i th

let's bring in former fbi assistant director tom fuentes, former fbi special agent, jonathan gilliam. guys thank you for being here. tom, let me begin with you. one of these fugitives, richard matt once fled to mexico after he murdered a man. they were just 20 miles from the canadian border at this facility. what are the chances, you think, they're already out of the country? >> i think they're great, poppy. and much of the canadian/u.s. border is not really protected. we've devoted so many resources in the u.s. to trying to guard the mexican border that the long 3,000-mile border with canada, the checkpoints, they'd need a passport to two through. there are so many footpaths, country loads that lead from the u.s. to canada. they could have walked there by the time the police knew they were missing. montreal a major city is 75 miles away. that's only an hour and a half by car. it's very possible they've made it as far as canada. they could also be just about anywhere in the united states by car or bus by now. >> as we look at this map on our screen what you see is outside that correct

jonathan gilliam, thank you. good to see you, as always. >>> up next, a shot in the arm for the death penalty. that comes courtesy of the supreme court of the united states. >> find out what the nine said. >>> he may not have saved the biggest decision for the last but the supreme court of the united states wrapped up a historic term today with weighty decisions on pollution and capital punishment and political gerrymandering. in a case from oklahoma, the justices decided to uphold the use of a lethal injection drug that inmates claim is cruel and unusual. they ruled against the government's attempt to regulate mercury and arsenic emissions from power plants and they also said an unelected outside panel absolutely can set boundaries of congressional districts, taking that all-important power away from state legislatures. three biggish shusz, one very important correspondent, cnn's pamela brown is on the steps of the supreme court and jeffrey toobin is with me as well. pamela, first to you, walk me through the let

jonathan gilliam, always great to have you on. i appreciate having both of you. stay tuned. we'll be hearing from boston police at some point live. we'll bring it to you live when that happens. >>> news just in to cnn amid the corruption scandal. fifa president sepp blatter is stepping down as head of the world's most popular sport. this days after the chief of soccer's governing body of narrowly elected to his position. cnn sports alex thomas joins me from london. he was just elected friday. is this a massive shock that he's saying he -- he's out? >> reporter: this is the most historic day in the history of the most popular sport, broo. absolutely sensational. this is a watershed moment in the way the salt lake city scandal was for the olympic movement at the turn of the century and in the way the lance armstrong doping confession was for the world of cycling. this tunchs therns -- this turns the game on its head. he spent most of his life at the governing body for world soccer. president since 1998. he's the third longest serving leader in the organization's history. yet,

joining us in the studio is jonathan gilliam, a former fbi special agent. this news we're just getting in, a new perimeter established. this scent apparently a strong scent and information they found some kind of matted down area where they believe these men slept. >> right. you know, this is where all the individuals that you have out there looking for them, the hostage rescue team of the fbi, fbi agents, the state and local authorities, you have the department of corrections s.e.r.t. team, almost like their swat s.w.a.t. team. this is where they shine. they know how to quadrant off this new perimeter and do a grid search. >> we've heard about a grid search before. how does the search change? it seems an urgency maybe right now because they may have a good scent which means a good lead on where these guys were at least very recently. when they are expanding the perimet perimeter, what are they going to do? what changes right now? >> so the good thing when you have a location where you think they may be, it's much easier to have the teams work and search sm

jonathan gilliam is joining me now live from new york. good to see you. he's a former navy s.e.a.l.th me here today. >> sure. >> what is the focus of the investigation now? >> well first off, they're going to -- this investigation goes in many different directions. it goes from the point of where it happened backwards. it goes from that point backwards to where the van came from to where he got his weapons, what type of explosives were actually used. he said c-4 but there's still residue inside that van and where the other pipe bomb went off enough to where they'll be able to tell what type of explosives were there. they'll go to his home. they'll look at his computer. basically what they're going to do is take every piece of this puzzle that they can grab and put together this picture of what actually happened what led this guy to it and how he did this whole thing because it was a very well thought out and well planned operation that this guy carried out. >> so residue, even in that charred-out van we saw pictures of the aftermath of that van, police tried to detonate two pipe bom

jonathan gilliam, thank you for sharing that information with us. we'll stay on top of this story and bring you developments as they come in. >>> we're also following several other stories today. a judge recommending charges against police officers in the shooting death of a 12-year-old boy. find out why this doesn't necessarily mean officers will face prosecution. that's coming up. quiet! mom has a headache! had a headache! but now, i...don't. excedrin® is fast. in fact for some, relief starts in just 15 minutes. excedrin®. wow, that was fast. new neutrogena cooldry sport. sunscreens behind? micromesh technology lets sweat pass through and evaporate so skin stays comfortable, while clinically proven protection stays on. new cooldry sport. neutrogena. >>> a cleveland judge says there is enough evidence to support charges against the police officers involved in the shooting death of 12-year-old tamir rice. but whether police will be prosecuted remains to be seen. rice was killed last november and it was all caught on camera as tamir rice was in a par

thank you so much sara ganim, alexandra field, jonathan gilliam. appreciate it.p in sleep out star gaze dream big wander more care less beat sunrise chase sunset do it all. on us. get your first month's payment plus five years wear and tear coverage. make the most of summer... with volvo. the world is filled with air. but for people with copd sometimes breathing air can be difficult. if you have copd, ask your doctor about once-daily anoro ellipta. it helps people with copd breathe better for a full 24hours. anoro ellipta is the first fda-approved product containing two long-acting bronchodilators in one inhaler. anoro is not for asthma. anoro contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma. it is not known if this risk is increased in copd. anoro won't replace rescue inhalers for sudden copd symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition, or high blood pressure. tell your doctor if you have glaucoma, prostate or bladder problems, or problems passing urine as anoro may make these

films aren't adaptations of prose fiction, that they're created from the ground up like brazil, the gilliam film, to be a film. [ music playing ]. >> funding for "overheard" with evan smith is provided in part by mfi foundation. improving the quality of life within our community, and from the texas board of legal specialization, board certified attorneys in your community. experienced, respected and tested. also, by hillco partners. texas government affairs consultancy, and its global health care consulting business unit, hillco health. and by the alice kleberg reynolds foundation. and viewers like you. thank you.

. >> that was john gilliam speaking there. >>> a look at how north korea is managing the worst drought it has seen in 100 years. u know, when i started my business, a lot of people didn't believe in me. but things took off when i got a domain and built my website all at godaddy. now i can tell the doubters to stick it. hey, honey. stick it! stick it! stick it! nana? hi... stick it! can you give your mommy a message for me? stick it! get a domain website and email starting at $1/month all at godaddy. kellogg's® frosted mini-wheats®... 8 layers of wheat... and one that's sweet. for the adult.... and kid - in all of us. (supergrass' "alright") (plays throughout) ♪ kellogg's frosted mini wheats® feed your inner kidult... when were you first considered a family? when you fell in love? when you got married? when you had kids? when did you first fight to be considered a family? when you fell in love? when you got married? when you had kids? family isn't defined by who you love, but how. tylenol®. >>> welcome back nature is wreaking havoc on north korea. the communist state which is one of the

. >> jonathan gilliam, you are with us all morning.e have more questions with these new developments that we are just getting there in new york. thank you so much for your expertise and insight. >> you've got it. thank you. >>> the debate on gun control in the national spotlight. the president is vowing he will not allow this to fade away. his plans to keep the conversation going. >>> nine murder camps. the possibility of the death penalty. how can dylann roof's attorney defend him. ♪ ♪ want to survive a crazy busy day? start with a positive attitude and positively radiant skin. aveeno® positively radiant moisturizer... with active naturals® soy. to help reduce the look of brown spots in just four weeks. and another positively brilliant idea... aveeno® skin brightening scrub to clean and gently exfoliate. aveeno® naturally beautiful results®. ♪ ♪ hp instant ink can save you up to 50% on ink delivered to your door so print all you want and never run out. plans start at $2.99 a month. right now, buy an eligible printer and get three mont

jonathan gilliam is joining us and sarah gannon is in new york.ted sightings, sarah? >> reporter: these new developments happening as they enter the third week of the two escaped convicted murderers. the sightings happened last weekend, one on saturday and one on sunday both in two separate towns about 350 miles away from here near the new york border with pennsylvania. the first one on saturday happened in a town called irwin near some train tracks. the next day, a town just south of there called lindley. state police telling moo he they actually have surveillance tapes from one of those two towns from a business that show these two men, both spotted by two different people walking nearby. the surveillance tape wasn't good enough for the police to determine if it was richard matt or david sweat who were walking near this business. they have now sent that tape to a crime lab for further analysis and hope to get some better pictures of those two men this weekend so they can determine if this was an actual sighting. they are taking it seriously. the

so for more and the suspect, i want to bring in jonathan gilliam.>> thank you. >> first of all, what do you make of this detail that supposedly this gunman allowed people to live so that she could tell everybody what he did? >> hopefully that will be his downfall. i'm glad that he allowed her to live and i hope that turned around and evidence comes out of that that directly affects this. >> it's mind boggling. he went inside this church and sat for an hour while people prayed. nine people killed six of them women, three of them men. it just seems like what a coward. >> the that's the exact word for it. cowardly. there's probably some insanity here as well. anyone who does this is not right. that's for sure. but it's a cowardly act to walk into a church where people are praying. these are obviously pillars of the community. they're on a wednesday night at a prayer service not hurting anybody. and for this individual to walk in is just a cowardly act. my prayers go out to all law enforcement right now. the community after the shooting in south carolin

jonathan gilliam, an fbi special agent and gary heyward who served time in jail and an author. you for being with me. 700 leads. you heard miguel talk about, it's swarming with law enforcement, nearly 1,000. why haven't they found them? >> well i mean they did get an eight-hour head start. wherever -- we started off with two scenarios. they may not be there. that's the worst scenario. a lot of people are starting to come away from that and think that because the dogs pick up scent, they are there. we concentrate on the scenario they didn't have help. they had eight hours to get three miles away. this is a big area. it's very swampy. you see how bad the weather is. their ability to maneuver and get away is as hard as it is for the guys to come in and search for them. that's probably what's delaying this process. >> as someone who served time there, today they had a farm that was the focus. they thought for a brief while that they were there. everybody was converging on that space. then they said no. law enforcement were leaving. a few false alarmed. >> i think that one of the ke

joining me is jonathan gilliam, also a former police officer.m washington we have a law enforcement analyst, who is also a former fbi assistant director. thank you both for being here. jonathan i'll start with you. we heard some interesting things this interview with bob, the cabin owner. he said a couple of things that he found. there was a bottle of gin that was split, and the cap was on the floor. does that suggest that perhaps both of them were drinking perhaps intoxicated, and he might be in a state where he is just not fully functioning at all? >> well i know i would have been if i was in their shoes. i think -- i have heard reports that matt was intoxicated and sick. i don't know if we verified that or not. it would make sense if they were on the run, they got in there and this stuff was in there. if in fact matt was intoxicated and sick again, along with the stuff that they're talking about with the autopsy about his feet and the abrasions, i think it's starting -- a picture is starting to develop that they were actually moving quite a b

here is phil mudd, the cnn terrorism analyst, former cia counterterrorism official also jonathan gilliam from new york, a former fbi special agency police officer and air marshal. phil mudd how concerned should we be about this latest advisory from the department of homeland security and the fbi? >> back when i was at the fbi we'd meet everyday to talk about threats. firm sitting at that threat table today i would be nervous and the reason is straightforward. back through the first s.e.c. cade of this century after 9/11 we had a target, that is al qaeda, that we could use intelligence capabilities against. intercepted e-mails, for example, if you look at the call for from isis now you step back and say who are we supposed to target? some kid who's never travelled? some kid who just wants to shoot up a shopping mall or something. so you say if one out 30630 million americans wants to heed that call we have a problem. >> and given the availability of weapons in the united states jonathan and soft targets that are so plentiful this causes enormous fear especially this notion of a single ind

let's talk about it with former fbi special agent and former police officer jonathan gilliam.e, and what they found was that there were more pipe bombs. there were two more pipe bombs at least inside of that van. this was clearly very very planned out. >> i haven't gotten any intel if that was a controlled explosion or if they actually set that off but that was a pretty good explosion right there. so i don't know if that was them controlling that or if that was the pipe bombs but that was a good hit. >> so i spoke earlier this hour with a judge, judge cooks, who was overseeing basically a custody battle over this suspect's child. she said he was mentally unstable. she didn't go into the details. she said he was very angry, had made threats against her. i wonder why is someone like that out on the streets and able to plan something like this if he's made threats against a judge? >> you know poppy, that's an interesting question. the way a lot of laws are written, we can't just incarcerate somebody because they make threats. >> but what about surveillance? >> i mean yeah there c

. >>> we're back with former fbi special agent jonathan gilliam and cnn law enforcement analyst tom fuentes's very scary. who it was and if they are linked. investigators have released any details about the type of gun or bullets. why? >> they wouldn't because hundreds of people would confess. so only the shooter knows. and if they give all the details out then they can't separate out the people that are the ones that confess to stuff like this. it happens frequently. they only want the shooter when they get that person to know the details. >> amazing multiple people would confess to something like this. you believe the shooter is familiar with the area >> right. they haven't had a homicide there in eight years and this is a small town. not highly populated like new york city. so i just think that sometimes when you look at an investigation it's not necessarily what's being presented but what's not being presented. it's more of a random type of attack but in an area that's repetitive where these things are happening in this specific place. i think that's something that really does point to

. >> united states continued.com, jonathan gilliam on facebook. >> thank you very much. >> things goingew york city as the liberal mayor is backing policies creating chaos on the street. jesse watters will report. also brit hume on donald trump getting sacked by nbc over his comments on mexican illegals. we hope you stay tuned to those reports. i juice. and then there's that other thing. this... i can do easily. new benefiber healthy shape. just a couple of spoonfuls every day means fewer cravings. plus, it's all natural, clear, taste-free and dissolves completely. it's clinically proven to keep me fuller longer and helps keep me healthy inside and out. new benefiber healthy shape. this, i can do. (vo) if you have type 2 diabetes you may know what it's like to deal with high... and low blood sugar. januvia (sitagliptin) is a once-daily pill that, along with diet and exercise helps lower blood sugar. januvia works when your blood sugar is high and works less when your blood sugar is low, because it works by enhancing your body's own ability to lower blood sugar. plus januvia, by itself,

of fear and at the same time we heard from one of our law enforcement analysts earlier, jonathan gilliamrous situation for police too. you have residents fearful and armed, and that also helps put law enforcement in danger to an extent. explain that dynamic for us. >> this is interesting. back in 2004 there was a man who robbed a place that had recyclable cans and bottles and was wanted. he was spotted in the woods in friendship. the police had gone around and showed his photo. a resident saw him told him to stop. the man continued. he shot him in the leg once. and the guy got up and tried to run. he shot him in the leg again. the guy said what are you doing. the guy said you never run from a red neck with a gun and dragged him to the authorities. this was in friendship new york and that's where this is taking place. just about everybody has a gun. this is a strong gun community. but not -- allegheny county new york is the largest deer take per capita per square mile. this is a hunting area fishing area. it's an outdoors county. so people do have guns and they know how to use them and wi

also former fbi agent jonathan gilliam. rick as we've been covering this now for weeks, what is your reaction to the way that this capture of david sweat went down the fact that they were able to apprehend him and keep him alive? >> i think it's fantastic poppy. and really goes to the dedication of the many different law enforcement organizations that were involved in this. it's not an easy task to harness the combined resources of almost 1,300 state, local, and federal law enforcement officers. there are all kinds of issues you've got to set up a joint incident command post and staff that and run it for a sustained period of time. you know listening to the residents talk about how relieved they are. i'm sure the law enforcement community also has this great collective sigh of relief. it brings to mind the words penned by george orwell many years ago, people sleep soundly in their beds at night because men stand ready to visit violence on their behalf. thank goodness there was some alert law enforcement officers that brough

jonathan gilliam, a forger special agent for the fbi says sweat could be important for learning aboutrectional facility. >> here's the thing that i think a lot of people are missing is the fact that he may hold the key to a system that is, has been corrupt the. i'm not saying everybody is corrupt in there, but a system that is corrupted. if there's one or more of these guards or these employees as we've seen that have done things you're not supposed to shall the system is corrupted. so i think this is where he's going to be very helpful, and he may actually be the most helpful part of this entire investigation. >> and one person we haven't heard anything from up until now is david sweat's mother. and she says her son always got in trouble. but she told a local tv reporter that she actually cried when her son was captured, because she was happy he was still alive. >> it's a sigh of relief. we started crying, because he wasn't killed. >> were you ever afraid that he was going to try to come down to this area while he was on the run? >> oh, no, my son knows here if he would have come her

gilliam and they haven't interviewed him yet. they want to interrogate him. do they incentivize him to talk? >> big day for law enforcement. great job. they got their person. i think this is what is going to happen. it was important that the governor said he was in stable condition. that's an important fact. you know he got shot in the the torso and worry if he is in critical condition and the like. i think as soon as he has the ability to speak they will start to ask him and provide incentive to speak. here are the incentives not to speak. from a prosecution perspective you are talking about someone in jail for life. so you say it is over. why should i speak to anyone. you can't do anything to me and no member would want you to cut a deal to have him out early. we don't want him out early. and the prison life and the niceties that we take for granted, soda, maybe food. the niceties we take for granted in prison they are significant. to the extent, poppy, that they may be able to make his life easier, a long life indeed that he will spend in jail, i think tho

jonathan gilliam is a former fbi special agent and a former police officer and air marshal and formerwarden patrick johnson, now a criminal justice professor at sunni from a doan ya joins us as well. welcome to both of us. thank you for being here. >> good morning. >> good morning. so jonathan i want to start with you. how close are they to finding these guys? >> i think the combination of the sighting and the dna is probably the perfect storm as far as the tip goes. before it's just been sightings but now they actually have trace physical evidence that they were there. i think that the only thing that will set them back is the question you asked a minute ago. how long of a time was it before that tip came in and they were able to get officers out there. that's why i keep saying they need to have a quick reaction force that they can push out there in a moment's notice via helicopters and able to go in there. that takes a little more training to be able to do that but that's what they need in these cases. >> i'm thinking about the darn and what the dna was found on. maybe food? >> well

me now to talk about this and more former atf agent matthew horace and former fbi agent jonathan gilliamthank you for being with me. i appreciate it. first off, matthew, what do you make of that that the gunman allowed someone to live so she could tell the tale? >> that was all about control. we've seen that in the past and we've seen it again this time but you never can tell what people are going to do in these situations. several things come to mind about these case. number one, he's the male. most active shooter incidents in the united states have involved males. number two, he was a lone wolf. most incidents, involve one person. as long as law enforcement can identify what's on the front of the vehicle, where that vehicle came from and who owns it you can believe even with this somewhat disguised, someone knows who this is. >> we have close-up photos of the police pictures and i want, skoothy, if you can put one up on the screen. jonathan and i were trying to figure out what he has on his nose if anything. jonathan you've been able to study for about a half hour now. can you figure i

. >> want to go back to jonathan gilliam. if you will summarize for us where we are at this point. because we have someone who has been shot twice in an open field by a new york state trooper. david sweat who is in the emergency room at this moment, at this hour and a lot of people who want to know how this happened how they got that far and whether or not he will be returned and returned rather quickly back to that facility and if that facility is ready to even take him regarding all of the mishappens and the way things were handled in this escape. >> let's look at a couple things here. one of the things again as tom fuentes and everybody else in law enforcement has said it's the utmost important to give him the proper medical care. that's the way we work in this country. even though he's a criminal and a murderer who's wasted millions of millions of dollars and put this community at great risk we're going to give him the medical attention he needs to stay alive. that being said, your previous guest, that was a prisoner with him, i can disagree with him on one thing. eric had neve

thank you to jonathan gilliam, john cuff jonathan dienst for joining us. it is "hardball" for now. "all in with chris hayes" starts right now. >>> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes on a huge historic absolutely head-snapping news day. this friday on one of the most consequential weeks in the presidency of president obama. today was the day that the supreme court legalized same-sex marriage in all 50 states. we will talk to the plaintiffs who brought the case live from the historic stone wall inn in just a minute. you see them there. today was also the day that president obama gave a passionate and rousing eulogy to the slain pastor of emanuel ame church in charleston delivering one of the great speeches in recent memory and even leading the congregation in the singing of "amazing grace." we will play you that and take you to south carolina for reaction. >>> but first, an update on the latest breaking news on this day we have in upstate new york where a nearly three-week-long manhunt for two escaped murderers is coming to a dramatic head. at this hour one escaped prisoner

i'm bringing in former fbi agent jonathan gilliam to talk more about it. jonathan, thanks for joining us. what are your observations off the bat as we try to figure breaking news developments out? >> right off the bat sounds as though the person is known to the local police which will make the investigation go much faster. i wouldn't say it's a benefit to the police when they do these types of terrorist attacks and come out with isis flag. so you know their motivation. now they can instantly, even before law enforcement gets on scene they can start querying sources, they can start doing database checks, looking at past chatter to see if this is any big the main thing right now they're trying to see how big is this growing to go. will this be preliminary attack or could this get bigger. sandra: does this strike you as sort of a new game changer here, going into france, decapitating somebody in their country, as opposed to what we've been seeing with these, with these crazy people decapitating people on their turf? >> right. no, i think france has had this,