. >> glenn kirschner, i think we now know what rich's. rich is having so many bathrooms you can use one of them just for classified documents. >> lawrence, you know what else is rich? using your attorneys in further earns of your crimes. it's remarkable when you read through this indictment, this speaking indictment, how donald trump and his coconspirator, is criminal associate, mr. nauta, we're desperately trying to hide boxes of classified documents, not just from the fbi, the national archives, and doj officials, but from donald trump's own lawyers. and lawrence, these lawyers were trying to protect donald trump's interests by going through the boxes, conducting diligent searches, and returning everything to the department of justice and to the grand jury pursuant to the subpoena for the return of all classified documents. and as they are trying to protect donald trump's legal interests, he and nauta are hiding, i believe, 67 boxes from attorney evan corcoran, and the others, and causing them to engage in incomplete searches, and then

glenn kirschner, let's talk about the ruling in the classified documents case about evidence. what does it say to you about this case? >> you know, it says that the court and the prosecutors are going to try to put in place all of the safeguards that they can to keep donald trump from further disseminating information. he was obviously disseminating saying is that he should not have been, which is what landed him in legal hot water and now the prosecutors and the judge want to make sure that he is not in the position to throw this information into the public square. information that the prosecutors are required to give his defense attorneys as part of the discovery process. you know, trump is famous for naming witnesses, for endangering judges, prosecutors, and their families. grand jurors and trial jurors. and the judge and the prosecutors are trying to put all of the safeguards in place that they can to keep that from happening and the order itself says that a knowing violation of the order, by the defendant, or the defense attorneys, may result in contempt of court and othe

glenn kirschner, thank you very much for joining us. neal katyal, please stick around because, when we come back, we are going to the supreme court, and law school students dream of the day when they might be lucky enough to argue a case before the supreme court of the united states. most lawyers never come close. to the highest court room in the land. we neal katyal has argued 50 cases to the supreme court. today, he won what a distinguished former federal judges now calling, quote, the most important case for american democracy in the almost two and a half centuries since americas founding. tonight's savior of democracy, with neal katyal, who is too modest to take a victory lap, will explain to us what the supreme court's ruling means for the survival of democracy in this country. that is next. still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking rinvoq saw

leading off our discussion tonight, glenn kirschner, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. he is the host of justice matters podcast. also with, us bradley moss, a national security attorney and former clerk for the national security archive. glenn kirschner, it is just so striking to see a another whites house chief of staff right in the center of the target space of a special prosecutor's investigation of a not the republican president. >> lawrence, i love what you focused on. i don't think it is a shock that jack smith secured mark meadows testimony given how aggressively jack smith has been trying to secure the testimony of every relevant witness around donald trump. i suspected that mark meadows would testify, but the question that i think is intensely interesting is in what capacity did mark meadows testify? was he, as you mentioned, a cooperating witness? because what jack smith could have done is tell him, listen, the only terms on which i will accept her testimony is if you plead guilty to your crimes, you agree to testify truthfully about the crimes of others, in

former glenn kirschner, federal processor and host of the justice matters podcast. and i dave aronberg, a state attorney for palm beach county florida. now, let's listen to donald trump's first answer about possessing war plans against iran. for >> why did you have this very sensitive, national security defense document? like the war plans for a strike on iran. >> like every other president, i take things out. in my case, i took it out pretty much in a hurry. >> i took it out in a hurry. so there you hear donald trump admitting that he took iran more plants. and did it in a hurry. then donald trump later seemed to say that he doesn't know if he took iran were plans. >> these boxes were interspersed with all sorts of things. golf shirts, clothing, pants, shoes. there were many things. i would say much more -- >> not that i know of. >> but everything was declassified. >> because now it's not that i know of. donald trump's criminal defense lawyers, because they are not allowed to lie to the court, have not tried to ever say in court that everything was declassified. an

back with us is glenn kirschner.hat's your evaluation as a prosecutor of these developments? immunity and a potential cooperation agreement? >> yeah, you know, immediately was yeah, because what immunity me, jonathan, is that there is somebody who is probably been involved in crime, but the prosecutors make a tactical decision. we're not going to charge them. instead, we're going to grant them immunity and we're going to compel their testimony. we're going to squeeze it out of them in the grand jury. once you give them immunity, they no longer have a fifth amendment right against self incrimination that they can invoke, and not testify. but the challenge with immunity is once you grant somebody immunity, if you need to rely on that person at trial, there are going to be on the receiving end of some scorched earth cross-examination. because the defense attorney will say, listen you've committed crimes. you were granted immunity by that prosecutor sitting right there. so you aren't held accountable for what you did. yo

anyone can prosecute this case. >> luckily, glenn kirschner is here. it was just a few days ago that the wall street journal reported prosecutors were struggling to actually feel that they had enough evidence to prove motive. and then, they heard the tape, and that changed everything. do you agree that the state is everything? >> it is. i mean, the state, i think, should lead to a conviction on any counts that relate to what donald trump was discussing at that but mr. location. and i actually have found it hard to believe all along that folks continue to talk about how hard it is to prove either criminal intent generally, or donald trump's corrupt intent specifically. ordinarily we get to infer criminal intent from conduct, from statements of a defendant. and donald trump's his own worst enemy. donald trump will convict donald trump at trial. let's take one example. it probably would have been a pretty heavy evidentiary lift, steph, for prosecutors to prove. donald trump knew what was in all of those boxes that were transported from the white house to

you glenn kirschner, please stay with us. when we come back, more breaking news. jack smith has compelled at least two republican fake electors to testify to a federal grand jury investigating efforts to overturn the election. and he could be close to a cooperation deal with someone in trump's inner circle. and, breaking news from russia, where there are reports of a possible attempted coup of vladimir putin's leadership in the wake of the disastrous ukraine invasion. richard engel will join us next. and there is special counsel jack smith's federal -- into january 6th turned 2020 with the situation. relative dormancy working for mr. smith. it would be the first known instance of cooperation by someone with direct knowledge of the so-called fake elector plan. mr. in several key -- for his role in inciting the january 6th attack on the capital. back h attack on the capital. bac a patch of grass for bruno, a pool for first-timers, don't worry, i've got you. and time with each other. and when they needed support, someone was right there. i got you. because what's uni

attorney for the district of columbia and now an nbc news and msnbc legal analyst, glenn kirschner. glenn, we're so glad you're with us today. let's start with that "the new york times" reporting about how these trump aides could be key to the prosecution's case. give us your take. >> jonathan, it's actually reminiscent of what we saw during the january 6th house select committee public hearings where the voices, and certainly some of the most critical voices, the most incriminating voices came from republicans, so now we're seeing some former trump aides, which is also similar to what we saw in the speaking indictment once it was unsealed. you know, when you look at some of the most sharply incriminating evidence from the indictment, who is it coming from? people designated as trump lawyer number 1, trump lawyer number 2, trump lawyer number 3, or trump employee number 1, trump employee number 2. you know, it's really unusual to have nothing but allies or former allies of a defendant prepared to testify and make the case against the defendant, but that's what we saw in the j-6 heari

my panel is still with me, carol leonnig, anthony coley, glenn kirschner, and sarah matthews. the justice department is going to face tomorrow. >> you know what i worry about as a communications person, i worry about the rhetoric and the misinformation that is coming out from trump and his republican allies. >> calling merrick garland prosecution -- >> right, which isn't the case. but the attorney general did back in november was put in place and independent career prosecutor to come to his own determination as prosecutorial decision about whether or not charges should be bought. what people don't realize about jack smith is that, you remember this, stephanie, he was the one who led the prosecution against the democratic senator of north carolina. he doesn't have a political bone in his body. but i worry, going back to my first point, about this rhetoric, this misinformation. republicans are not arguing against the facts, right? there is a saying in legal circles that if you don't have a lot on your side, you need the facts. and if you don't have the facts on your side, you ne

glenn kirschner, we appreciate it.our texas republicans now truly worried the democrats are getting close to turning texas blue. new legislation targeting elections in the states democratic stronghold, it's on the way to the texas governor, greg abbott. but democrats are vowing to fight. it that's next. shingles. the rash can feel like an intense burning sensation and last for weeks. it can make your workday feel impossible. the virus that causes shingles is likely already inside of you. 50 years or older? ask your doctor about shingles. with the freestyle libre 2 system. know your glucose level and where it's headed. without fingersticks. manage your diabetes with more confidence. now widely covered by medicare for patients managing diabetes with insulin. visit freestylelibre.us/medicare to learn more. my most important kitchen tool? my brain. so i choose neuriva plus. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. >> turning

so, glenn kirschner, thank you so much. you were a 30 year federal prosecutor now an msnbc analyst. news that broke overnight because the grand jury is expected to meet this week. what does that mean for the timeline? should we all be on indictment watching hours that premature. >> we should be on indictment watch because what i'm saying is prosecutorial practice 101. the last witness went before a grand jury at three months ago. now they will be recalled, they'll be back in session this week. let me tell you what i take away from that. when we are handling large-scale investigations. big rico conspiracy cases, what we do is we try to present all of the witnesses and all of the evidence to the grand jury. the testimony, the documents we've subpoenaed the audiotapes, the surveillance tapes of perhaps people moving boxes around. once we are done or we think we are done we take a step back and we basically send the grand jurors home. and what we do is produce what is called a case impression memo. a salute to notes written account of every shred of evidence the grand jury heard, every

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attorney and legal analyst glenn kirschner and msnbc contributor katie benner is here, she's been covering classified documents since the beginning. former fbi intelligence officer pete struck is with us. pete, to you and glenn, there was a surprise of when we learn what jack smith has, but those on the inside say of course he's developed all this evidence and of course it's copious amounts. what do you make of this latest filing and a recording of donald trump that is indicted in the indictment itself. >> nicolle, i think you're exactly right. i don't think it comes as a surprise to anybody within the team or anyone who has worked in government before. keep in mind we don't have the slightest idea of the totality of information that jack smith and his team have assembled. every court document whether it's an affidavit for a search warrant, information in an indictment, does not contain and is not required to contain the totality of information that the government has in its possession. so it stands to reason, you know, not only has there been a grand jury but separate and apart from that

joining me now, msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, glenn kirschner. s also host of the justice matters broadcast. glenn, thank you for coming back to the saturday show. okay, first, this document. is reporting, now, i just said, trump's lawyers can't find it. if they can't find it, does that mean that this case is going to crumble? >> no, depending on what the evidence shows, prosecutors will have an opportunity to portray it appropriately as incriminating. if they find it, they found it, and it's a classified documents. donald trump should not have taken with him when he left the white house, and he should not have been referring to it, waving it around, talking about its contents with people who had no security clearance. they didn't get to know one word of what was in that document he was waving around. if they have, it is incriminating. if they don't have it, and donald trump was referring to it and said it's classified, i can't show it to you, what did he do is it? did he destroy it? is he still hiding it? did he sell it, disseminated to somebody?

and, former federal prosecutor glenn kirschner. hugo, you have been reporting of a storm specifically about trump's lawyers being told that donald trump is a target of the investigation, that is very significant. until now, we have talked around, it but now he is official. what more can you tell us? >> yes, look, in many ways, you know, this is not news. it is quite apparent that he has been focused on this investigation for months, and the fact that his lawyers have -- in recent days that he has been a target of this investigation comes both the espionage act of the inga government and is very significant and part of the impetus for basically the legal team in their meeting on monday with both special counsel and the senior career official and the attorney generals office, to try and stave off an indictment, and allegations on prosecutorial misconduct, and getting the special counsel to stand down. >> glenn, what do you think, what is your reaction to trump 's lawyers being told he is a target? >> yeah, i don't think it came as a

also with us former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst glenn kirschner.s is raffensperger's first interview as we understand it, with doj officials. what does it tell you about where they are in their case looking into january 6th? >> i think it tells us, for one, that there's a lot of publicly available evidence already that the grand jury could be drawing from because, of course, you know, that recording was widely available. so you know, pretty much everyone knows the story of what happens. and obviously, even a recording of that phone call is much more valuable evidence than would be testimony of someone, what they remembered two and a half years ago. so i think that they can just sort of bank on that. i think maybe glenn would have a better idea of what the special counsel is thinking in terms of this meeting, what they could be talking about going forward, maybe talking about where they could potentially need him. in any case, that may come to fruition or what his role could be in that -- in the future, but you know, obviously his testimony is prett

sadly i'm out of time, glenn kirschner, anthony coley, thank you to both of you for getting us started today. >> still to come on the katie phang show. unprecedented. a quick history lesson to help us understand the shocking and unethical political and legal behavior continues to define the trump era. and, later, no spoilers. the candidate field for 2024 is getting bigger across all party affiliations. we will dive into how democrats and republicans are working together to keep third party candidates from tossing the next presidential election into a tailspin. we've got much more of katie thanks so ahead so keep it right here on msnbc. o ahead so keep it right here on msnbc. (vo) this is sadie, she's on verizon. the network she can count on. and now she's got myplan, the game-changing new plan that lets her pick exactly what she wants and save on every perk. sadie is getting her plan ready for a big trip. travel pass, on. nice iphone. cute couple. trips don't last forever, neither does summer love. so, sadie is moving on. apple music, check! introducing myplan. the first and only unlim

. >> glenn kirschner for us, thank you. still ahead, widespread teacher shortages in the war against the lgbt community may be to blame. chasing educators and leaving students fighting for an education. >> it's almost like we're in a battle against the school board. the school board should be on our side. >> we're live at a juneteenth celebration ahead of tomorrow's holiday. much more coming up. much more congmi up. (vo) this is sadie, she's on verizo act now and get iphone 14 pro max on us when you switch. it's your verizon. when you're a leader, the competition is always hoping that you're gonna slip up. so, these suits are here to make sure that anything that i say is legally indisputable. like... apartments.com has the widest variety of variety. apartments.com was the reason that apartments were invented. heck! we got more spaces than space! that's entirely incalculable. incalculable... oh, i think that's legalese for... for true. [laughing] apartments.com the place to find a place. (psst psst) ahhhh... with flonase, al

joining me now, julia ainsley, phil rucker and former federal prosecutor glenn kirschner. what should we read into this move? does it signal she wants to move this along more quickly than we expected? if this happens or now whether it happens, how long will they have to review the documents? >> it's an order to get through the security process to move quickly into this. what this means is her fingerprints are now on the case. for anyone who hoped she would recuse herself, that doesn't seem likely. she says, green light, let's do this, i'm on it. legal experts i have talked to said there's no clear reason to recuse herself. maybe she made a bad call. she's inexperienced. but there's no major conflict of interest either with her family or financial interests. there was no real reason to recuse herself. she's moving forward now. yes, it does look like it's an expedited pace because she set a deadline for those security processes to move up. maybe it's something we wouldn't read into if it was any other case. this is not any other case. >> no doubt. we are reading into every m

>> joining us is glenn kirschner. give us a sense of where you think this is going.s after his presidency ended >> my biggest concern is for our national security. men and women we have around the world who are both maybe overtly members of the u.s. military or of one of our agencies doing our work overseas, covertly doing work to protect our national interests and security who knows how donald trump has compromised and put at risk all of those people? i think that is the immediate and ongoing concern. unless and until the united states' government, the law enforcement authorities can be confident they have collected back everything that donald trump mishandled or shared with others, how in the world can we protect our assets overseas? that's the immediate concern the long-term concern with respect to the trial is, i think the one wildcard now is judge aileen cannon. when you play clips of the barrs and the boltons and the espers saying deeply, sharply incriminating things about the president they served. these are donald trump's own cabinet members and executive bra