there's a very interesting column in "the new york times," helen gowe, to mark this anniversary thatth are an thpathetic. why do you think that is? >> i don't buy that. in early 1989, people were saying exactly the same thing, that, oh, sure, back in 1987, in the early '80s people cared about democracy. but now we're busy getting rich. the moment came when you could protest safely, and, you know, millions of people went out on the street. and right now as you create a more educated class, a more middle class, expose people more to corruption, when people think they can get away with it, they'll be out on the streets again. >> you think the fire is still there? >> i think that fire is absolutely still there. >> it seems like what gowe was attributing it to is the lack of ability to google and people not wanting to go through the trouble of getting a vpn to be on the internet. we looked at that challenge with the partnership with a data mining firm. they went deep into this idea of censureship. >> do you know what happened in china? >> 25 years after thousands of chinese students gathe

they hope that child labor can be a dignified practice based on rights and not explosion.wcgow [soft exotic flute music] ♪ captioning and audio description provided by the u.s. department of education. >> bokara: i'm bokara legendre. join me and my guests-- scholars and scientists, spiritual teachers and philosophers-- as we explore the boundaries of religion and metaphysics, of science and spirituality. join me and some really fascinating people as we try to figure out what life's all about and how it can have meaning for each one of us.

i might gow that into psychology or some other field. i do not know. i think i help them see -- x what is the difference between when they come in and when they leave? >> i think they see more sides of every issue. they recognize that things are just plantingy your feet in the sand and sticking to a position. that the best way to understand inething is to put yourself someone else's mind. when i talk about gun rights in the chapter on guns in this book i do not demonize the national rifle association. it does turn out that when charlton heston first learned he the-- he was then head of nra that i was coming around thinking people do have rights with respect to guns, he called me up and he said why don't you meet me in my private plane now that we are on the same side and i said, whoa, wait a minute. i still think you can regulate guns and that was the end of that conversation. i said i add meyer do -- i admired "planet of the apes." students andmy they tell me that i have shown therehat there is more than initially meets the eye and if you think hard a

so michael-a, how much gow see this as part of a general crackdown on journalists an how much is aimed specifically at al jazeera? >> well, this is clearly part of a broader pattern which descent and protes protest-- dissent and protest have been targeted and that is a big part of the story. this is the most high profile case of the whole series of cases. some of which have targeted protest leaders, activists, egyptian journalists. so this is part of a broader wave of oppressive actions that have been taken since the ouster of morsi last summer. i think geo politics is part of this story as well. al jazeera arabic coverage has been quite biased but of course has not risen to any kind of criminality. but that does explain why all jazeera english was targeted by-- in-- it has also made it much more difficult to unwind the case, to try to negotiate some sort of resolution to the imprisonment of these journalists. >> michele dunne, how do you see what has happened to these journalists. >> i agree with what michael said. i think another aspect of the case is the attempt by egyptian official

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that, too, is a cost of doing business. sososwhwcgow >> welcome to the "journal" live from "d.w.." here's what's coming up in the next 15 minutes. pro russian rebel shoot down a military plane in ukraine killing all 49 on board. a runoff to decide who will succeed president karzai. and in world cup action, defending champion spain are reeling after a 5-1 dropping at the hands of holland.