tell us the story of grover and frances cleveland. >> grover was law partners and friends with frances'partner father. cleveland supposedly gave him the first a.b. carriage and became a fixture in the house. as she grew up, she started to call him uncle cleve. her father was tragically killed when she was 11 in a carriage accident. money manager,od some people who knew more about the family history said he was a bit of a roague. cleveland stepped in as executor and money manager to help handle the affairs and work with emma to oversee france s'education. >> i read all of these short biographies, and it tells a story that he became interested after getting into the white house on a visit from the mother and daughter, but your tail goes back further. all the time that she was in college, he was sending loads of flowers to her and writing letters constantly. his eye on her for quite a while? >> i think he did. one thing that is interesting, people know little of her history. there -- her alma mater will special about the train them would come so he could come visit her. he did write her letters a

guest: grover cleveland was law partners with francis' father. and his wife had francis, cleveland supposedly gave them the first baby carriage. she became a fixture in the house. she started to call him uncle cleve. her father was killed tragically a couple days after her 11th birthday in a carriage accident, and oscar was not a good money manager. people who knew more about the family history said he was a bit of a rogue. he actually owed more money than he had in his estate. leave when stepped in as executor and money manager to help handle the affairs and work with emma to oversee francis' education. host: my take away was that his interest -- i read these short biographies -- it tells a story that he became interested after he got into the white house him a visit of mother and daughter, but your tail goes back farther. to the time she was in college, he was sent in bucket loads of flowers to and writing letters constantly. did he have his eye on her for quite a while? guest: i think he did. one interesting thing is that people who know a litt

grover cleveland, frances cleveland. this week on "q&a," cofounder and publisher of the website recognized with the 2013 peabody award for outstanding achievement in electronic media. >> tom goldstein can you remember when you named scotus blog and why? >> i think it was the very first day when we imagined hey what if we created a website my wife amy and i who is the editor it supreme court of the united states, there was this thing called blogging, we called scotus blog. >> why is what you're doing necessary? >> it's amazing the supreme court is really important institution. everybody got to agree with that to the healthcare decision to affirmative action and same sex marriage. yet with all the coverage of congress and the president, there was no place that was paying complete attention to what the justice was doing. >> why do you think there's so little interest on the part of the general media and

you know early politicians and i think grover cleveland was president at the time about commemorating what happened at haymarket square since most of the ruling elite at the time thought what happened was there was very bad that this is what extreme politics leads to and it led to a major clampdown on extreme politics in extreme economic positions which in turn fueled more organization from labor communities and really drove the kind of the progressive era at the beginning of twentieth century and even then led to the new deal and and everything but you know why does the united states not get involved in this you know maybe maybe it comes from the fact that we in the united states don't think we have like the sort of labor issues that the rest the world does when in reality we do have the same in a globalized labor market we have the very same troubling work related issues that the rest the world has yeah and fact you could argue that there are much worse than a lot of other industrialized countries and less vacation time less rights for workers you know it really started and yeah it

grover cleveland remarried in office. >> was that the 21-year-old? >> yes, for instancis cleveland. >> howeled was he? >> he was around 50 at the time. >> was that a successfu marriage? it stunned the nation. it was a absolutely spectacular secret marriag house. he courted her. she was the daughter of -- >> what do you mean by ward? >> he was her legal guardia from the time that she was she was the daughter of a law partner of his and whe the man died he ended up adopting her as it was >> yes president at the time. she grew up and he did. but he carried out the romance secretly >> was she a loving wife? >> they were in love all th way through to his death >> he eventually died of -- was he ill during the presidency >> he was. hoo he had cancer and had to have part of his jaw removed. >> how was that undertaken? made for him to go to was set up on a yacht of a friend and he was secretl taken to this yacht. the public was never informed he had cancer or the operation had happene engineer all that? >> she did. conceal it >> was he disfigured? >> no. pro

. >> after president grover cleveland loses his bid for re- election 1888, his wife tells the staff -- >> i want you to take good care of the furniture and ornaments in the house, and let them not get lost or broken, for i want to find everything just as it is now when we come back for years from now. >> we continue our series on first ladies tonight at 9:00 eastern on c-span, c-span3, c- span radio and c-span.org. >> i do not underestimate the difficulty of doing this option because it has ever been done before it is very complicated. there are a lot of moving parts. i know they're working diligently at the fcc to get it right. our job is to make sure they are adhering to the law, that we're in constant communication so our intent is clear. we want much of the spectrum to be available for sale and the auction as possible so we can bill that more wireless infrastructure. >> oregon congressman on the fcc spectrum auction and other communications issues in front of congress tonight on "the communicators" at 8:00 on c- span2. >> the tomb of the unknowns at arlington national cemetery. we

number three, grover cleveland's love child. number two, grant's whisky ring.ber one, the teapot-dome. >> who doesn't know teapot-dome. the warren g. harding administration. the bribery scandal before watergate. it was the biggest political scandal in our country's history. who doesn't know that, john? >> obama is being compared to president nixon. how does he feel about that? >> again, i don't have a reaction from president obama. i can tell you that people who make those kind of comparisons need to check their history. >> welcome to "morning joe." it is may 15th, as you take a beautiful look at new york city. with us on set, steve rattner, mike barnicle, willie geist and in d.c., we have lisa myers, kelly o'donnell, david ignatius and unbelievable amount of news

. >> after president grover cleveland loses his bid for reelection, his wife tells the staff -- and they did return to the white house. the wife of frances cleveland as we continue our servers -- series of first wiveladies. >> i do not underestimate the difficulty of doing this option of thisest ever -- option because it is never been done before. our job is to make sure they are adhering to the law, that we're in a constant communication so our intent is clear, that we want as much of the spectrum be made available for sale in the auction as possible so we can build out more wireless infrastructure. >> or in congress member on the fcc spectrum auction and other communications issues in front of congress. tonight on "the communicators" on c-span2. >> president obama heads to an arlington national cemetery for laying a wreath of the tomb of the unknown. a discussion about the employment picture for veterans for joining us, randy plunkett. thank you for joining us. guest: military.com and kyrgyz military and veterans to stay connected and stay informed. we have about 10 million members and

president grover cleveland loses his bid for reelection in 1888, his wife staff --that -- the they didreturn to the white house, winning the election of 1892. the life of frances cleveland as we continue our series on first ladies, live tonight at 9:00 eastern on c-span, c-span 3, c- span radio, and sees and outdoor. -- c-span.org shot of the tomb the unknowns at arlington national cemetery. live ceremony, wreathlaying ceremony taking place at 11:00 today with president obama and participation. you can see that on c-span. thefocus this morning for remainder of the day, we will take a look at veterans issues in our first guest joins us, responding, with the u.s. naval academy. fleming, with the u.s. naval academy. he has written a book. welcome. the state goes on, several issues dealing with the military as we speak. how would you give your assessment as far as how the military has fared over these recent news that we've heard over the last few weeks but things going on within it? guest: things are not looking quite as good as it might how much of put it mildly. we have a problem with t

. >> after president grover cleveland lose his bid for reelection his wife tells the staff. grip you take care of all the ornaments in the house. i want to find everything just as it is now when we come back again four years from today. >> they did return from the white house winning the selection in 1892. as we continue our series on first lady. live monday night at 9:00 eastern on c-span, c-span 3, c-span radio and c-span.org. >> now president obama in moore, oklahoma to survey the damage from last week's tornado. he met with affected families to offer his condolence. he also spoke to reporters what's next of plaza tower elementary school. president obama spoke for about 10 minutes. >> good afternoon everybody. obviously, a picture is worth a thousand words and what we're seeing here it gives you some sense of what the people of moore and people of oklahoma has been dealing with over these last several days. there are a couple of acknowledgements that i want to make. let me begin by just saying whenever i come to an area that's been devastated by some natural disaster like

>> after president grover cleveland lose his bid for reelection his wife tells the staff. you take care of all the ornaments in the house. i want to find everything just as it is now when we come back again four years from today. they did return to the white house. the life of frances cleveland as we continue our series on first ladies. >> now, president obama in moore, oklahoma to survey the damage of last weeks for nato. -- last week cost tornado. he spoke to reporters near what was left of the elementary childrenere several were killed. he spoke for about 20 minutes. >> good afternoon, everybody. obviously, a picture is worth a thousand words. what we are seeing here gives you some sense of what the people of moore and oklahoma have been dealing with over these last days. there are a couple of acknowledgment that i want to make. let me begin by just saying that whenever i come to an area that has been devastated by some natural disaster like this i want to make sure everyone understands i'm speaking on behalf of the entire country. everywhere. fellow americans are prayi

and you know early politicians a grover cleveland was president at the time about commemorating what happened at haymarket square since most of the ruling elite at the time thought what happened was there was very bad but this is what extreme politics leads to and it led to a major clamp down on extreme politics in extreme economic positions which in turn fueled more organization from labor communities and really drove the kind of the progressive era at the beginning the twentieth century and even then led to the new deal and and everything but you know why do you notice this not to get involved in this no maybe maybe it comes from the fact that we in the united states don't think we have like the sort of labor issues that the rest the world does when in reality we do have the same in a globalized labor market we have the very same troubling work related issues that the rest of the world has gotten fact you could argue that there are much worse than a lot of other industrialized countries and less vacation time less rights for workers you know it really started and yeah it was one of

. >> after president grover cleveland lost his bid for reelection, his wife told the staff that i wantedeverything just as it is now when we come back again four years from today. >> and they did return to the white house winning the election of 1892. the lice -- the life of francis cleveland on "first ladies"tonight on c-span. month, formers arizona congresswoman deborah giffords received a profile in courage award at a ceremony in boston. our coverage begins with the beginsal hunt traducing caroline kennedy. this is 15 minutes. >> we have a very high-powered committee. senators and house members, republicans, democrats, ceo's, america's greatest lawyers, most distinguished law school attendees and distinguished newspapers. all of us know who our leader is. she inherited her father and mothers intelligence, charm, grace, and diplomacy. the heart and soul of this magnificent place in this marvelous award, caroline kennedy. [applause] >> thank you, thank you, al. going tod that ken was introduce new that was nicer than anything ken ever said. thank you all for coming. this is always a spe

after president grover cleveland live -- loses the bid for reelection in 1888, his wife tell the staff went what i wait to take the care of all the furniture and ornaments and not let any of them get lost or broken for i want to find everything just as it now when we come back again watcher years from today. thend they did return to white house, winning the election of 1882. the life of francis cleveland as we continue our series on first ladies on c-span, c-span3, c-span radio and c-span.org. >> this morning, cindy schild from the american petroleum into two discusses the keystone xl pipeline. then kurt zimmer of the newspaper association of america discusses the proposed shield law. and later, environment and energy publishing reporter emily yehle looks at how automatic budget cuts are impacting national parks. "washington journal" is next. ♪ good morning and welcome to "washington journal" on this saturday, may 25, 2013. it's the start of the memorial day weekend. monday is the federal holiday honoring men and women who have died serving in america's military. as we reflect on the m

grover cleveland, again, he was a drunk and drank four beers a day at least and he and his friends would have a competition and i think that's cooler than what obama does. >> four beers is a drunk? >> that was their dare. he used to drink 10 to 12. he and his friend are like, we have to stop drinking. we will cut back to four. >> bill, don't think about it. what do you make of this? is he one of those guys that functions great as a fat guy? >> i like christie. i didn't like him for a longtime and now i love him. this is what a self-centered ass i am. i did "hannity" with him and it it was before he won the election. he said hello and i neglected to get a photo. i cannot live with being in the same room with a man who would be president and i didn't get a picture with. >> you have lost a lot of weight. >> thanks, greg. a little stick to itness and self-hatred moments. >> no lap band for you? >> no, it is just literally i just pinched my fat breast one too many time and i finally had to do something. >> come on, please, i popped out two kid and lost the baby weight twice. that's an accompl

and grover cleveland the next year thought it was better if we don't commemorate this event in may.it in september. so in fact we should be connected but there is a systemic campaign to dissociate us from the fact that the vast majority of us are workers. and to help us emotionally psychologically to identify with the top% even though we have an ice cube's chance in you nowhere to become the top ten percent. this is the kind of policies and disassociation. what is happening in bangladesh i hope is a turning point for reconsideration of how we feel about national labor and getting involved for rights much more seriously. >> cenk: what happened in 1981. a certain president came in. it's not just reagan but throughout of course through democratrepublican and democratic president, and they haven't really shared this fact with the american people that hey by the way, for the last 30-some odd years you guys have really been getting screwed. >> it's like tricia said. the media, which is backed by advertisers, and advertisers have a vested interest in making a stink that we could be one of

taft and grover cleveland two of your personal favorites were very hefty boys. have always marveled at christie's energy. even though he is a big man a lot of energy. >> you have a hell of a lot of energy until the minute your heart stops in the space of a one half of a nano second. right up until then though, you are a long distance runner. >> bill: he should be like me and give up the glue ten. get that wheat out of there you won't have to have the stomach stapled. >> can i tell what you it was like to be your friend on glue ten living hell. now that you are glue ten-free. >> i don't have my hero sandwich anymore and i miss them. >> bill: quick reminder make mom and daddy very happy. see miller and me west bury long island june 1st. on deck. tracking down cathy bodine, she trackinwith the spark cash card from capital one... boris earns unlimited rewards for his small business. can i get the smith contract, ease? thank you. that's three new paper shredders. [ boris ] put 'em on my spark card. [ garth ] boris' small business earns 2% cash back on every pchase ev

. >> after grover cleveland loses his bid for reelection in 1888, his wife tells the staff. >> i want you to take care of all the richer and ornament and not let any of them lost and broken. i want to fight everything as it is now warm he come back for years from today. >> they did come back, winning the election of 1892. the life of francis cleveland when we consider -- continue the series on first ladies. >> we will discuss the enforcement of tax exempt laws. ken walsh will discuss his new book "prisoners of the white house." it begins live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> next, a look at environmentalism and academia from a concerted coupon with remarks from steve milloy. year from the president of the national association of scholars who hosted this event earlier this year in new york. it is close to one hour. >> it is my pleasure to introduce our luncheon speaker, steve milloy. he is a prolific author on such things as health care scams, epa cleanup standards, the nuclear power industry. he is a biostatistician, with degrees from johns hopkins, also an attorney with degrees fro

. >> after president grover cleveland lose his bid for reelection his wife tells the staff. grip you take care of all the ornaments in the house. i want to find everything just as it is now when we come back again four years from today. >> they did return from the white house winning the selection in 1892. as we continue our series on first lady. live monday night at 9:00 eastern on c-span, c-span 3, c-span radio and c-span.org. >> now president obama in moore, oklahoma to survey the damage from last week's tornado.

taft and grover cleveland two of your personal favorites were very hefty boys.arveled at christie's energy. even though he is a big man a lot of energy. >> you have a hell of a lot of energy until the minute your heart stops in the space of a one half of a nano second. right up until then though, you are a long distance runner. >> bill: he should be like me and give up the glue ten. get that wheat out of there you won't have to have the stomach stapled. >> can i tell what you it was like to be your friend on glue ten living hell. now that you are glue ten-free. >> i don't have my hero sandwich anymore and i miss them. >> bill: quick reminder make mom and daddy very happy. see miller and me west bury long island june 1st. on deck. tracking down cathy bodine, she a s. a terrorist now teaching at columbia university. don't miss this watters world moments away. why are twice as many people choosing verizon over any other carrier? many choose us because we have the largest 4glte network. others, because of our reputation for reliability. or maybe it's because we've r

. >> after president grover cleveland lose his bid for reelection his wife tells the staff. you take care of all the ornaments in the house. i want to find everything just as it is now when we come back again four years from today. >> they did return from the white house winning the selection in 1892. as we continue our series on first lady. live monday night at 9:00 eastern on c-span, c-span 3, c- span radio and c-span.org. for a dvd copy of this program, call 1-877-682, 7766. for free transcripts or to give qanda.org.sit us at tha the gun next, live, your calls and comments on washington journal. live at 11:00, the president obama and mrs. obama take part in memorial day ceremonies at arlington national cemetery. >> actor president cleveland loses his bid for reelection, his wife tells the staff. >> ability to take care of the furniture and ornaments in the house and not let anything get lost or broken. i want everything just as it is now when we return for years from today. >> they did return to white house returning the election. >> the life of frances cleveland as we co

and nope no president has ever argued in favor of it in fact abraham lincoln argued against it grover cleveland eight hundred eighty seven in his in his state of the union address said corporations which should be the carefully constructed servants of the people are now the iron heel on the on the necks of the citizens of america well this goes back to what thomas sole talked about his right into the difference between political decision making an economic decision making economic decision making looks at long term economic consequences of various laws programs etc political decision making you're just trying to win reelection ok democrats and republicans are going to go back there's very little difference in a little bit we're built are going to have that i mean that's politics my friend i'm going i'm saying that it's that it's the supreme court that created this doctrine of corporate personhood and that money is speech much not speech it's property medea your thoughts on this well totally and i think until we change something like that it's going to be hard to ever have an economic system tha

visiting washington 1885, and france's received -- frances received a marriage proposal from grover cleveland. one year later they married in the blue room becoming the only president and first lady to be married in the wte house. a closer look at the life of a frances cleveland, live on memorial day on c-span and, c- span 3, and c-span radio. our website has more about the first lady's including a special section, welcome to the white house, produced by our partners at the white house historical association. in the whiteife house during each of their tenure. we're offering a special edition of "first ladies of the white house of america." it is now available for the discounted price of $12.95 plus shipping at c-span.org/products. >> in 1848 we have an unusual and remarkable situation here. suddenly, gold is discovered and the reason why the cantonese were the first to hear about it is because there were already some chinese here. in a flash, thousands of men began to board ships to hit the gold mountain, which california was ago -- known as then, the gold mountain. there were tales of men wa

1885, france's fulsome received a marriage proposal from the president of the united states, grover cleveland. a year later they were married in the white house he coming the only president and first lady to be married on the white house. francis became a celebrity overnight. was used widely in advertising, without her consent. monday, we get a closer look at frances cleveland. our website has more about the first lady's including including a special section, welcome to the white house. it chronicles life in the executive mansion during the tenure of each of the first ladies and we are all spring a special edition of the book " first ladies of the united states of america," comments from noted historians, and thoughts from michelle obama on , nowole of first of ladies identified -- now available for $12.95 less shipping. -- plus shipping. >> c-span, created in 1979, brought you as a public service by your television provider. click c-span talked with members of fema as they walked through a neighborhood of oklahoma, registering homeowners for federal assistance affect it by the tornado. you w

tonight at 8:00 eastern, saturday at 8:30 -- >> after president grover cleveland loses his bid for reelection in 1888, his wife tells the staff -- >> wanted to take care of all the furniture and ornaments and do not get them lost our broken because i want to find everything in the same order when we return. >> they won the election of 1892. the life of francis cleveland live monday night at 9:00 eastern on cspan. journal"continue as -- host: continue our discussion of president obama speech yesterday at the national defense university and we are joined by andrea prasow, near counter-terrorism counsel for a human rights watch. what is your reaction to the speech? what did the president do with this address? >> i think he set out an impressive vision. real question is what kind of action he will follow through with. host: what didn't he do? guest: he set a lot about guantanamo but he did not set forth the real plan to close it. part of his plan to move forward with guantanamo meant continuing some of the most problematic parts of it, continuing the indefinite detention without trial, and moving

to go after president grover cleveland loses bid for reelection in 1888 his wife tells the staff -- >i want to take good care of the furniture and ornaments in the house because i want to fight everything just as it is now when we come back four years from today. take good they did return to the white house winning the election of 1892. we continue our series of first ladies live tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span, c-span radio, and c-span.org. the first selectman of newtown, conn. delivered a commencement address at sacred heart university. she discussed the school tragedy and where the town of new town goes from here. this is 10 minutes. [applause] >> good morning, everyone. thank you for introducing me with such kind comments and for welcoming to sacred heart university. i am humbled and greatly honored by this recognition. congratulations to the graduates were having reached this milestone is life's journey, and congratulations also to the moms and dads, spouses, friends, relatives and supporters out there who are so proud of your accomplishments and who wish you happiness and succ

washington in 1885, emirates proposal was received from the president of the united state to wipe grover clevelandover a year later, the couple married in the white house blue room and became president and first lady that were the only ones to be married at the white house. next monday on our series of first ladies, we will get a close look at the life of francis cleveland. that begins at 9:00 p.m. eastern on c-span, c-span3, and c-span radio. >> we have more about the first ladies come including a special section, welcome to the white house. produced by the white house historical association. includes the tenure of each of the first ladies. and a special audition of the book, first ladies of the united states of america, are sending a biography and record of each first lady. includes michele obama and the role of first lady throughout history. now available for the price of 1295 plus shipping. at c-span.org/parks. >> c-span is created by america's cable company in 1979. brought to you as a public service by your television provider. >> coming up tonight on c-span2, the senate judiciary committee

conversations] >> [inaudible conversations] >> [inaudible conversations] >> after president grover cleveland loses his bid for reelection in 1888, his wife tells the staff, i want you to take good care of all the furniture and ornaments in the house and not let any of them get lost or broken. i want to find everything just as it is now. when we come back again for years from today. spent and they did return to the white house winning the election of 1892. the life of frances cleveland as we continue our series on first ladies, live monday night at nine eastern on c-span, c-span3, c-span radio and c-span.org. >> the u.s. senate is about to meet. senators began the day with about an hour of general speeches. at 10:30 a.m. eastern they turn to a judicial nomination for the u.s. appeals court. the senate will vote on moving the nomination forward and then a vote on a farm bill a minute. senator bernie sanders requires cynically engineered food is labeled as such. several other amendments are pending to the farm bill. the house is in. they take up the student loan bill debate on that on c-span, a

. ♪ >> after president grover cleveland loses his bid for reelection in 1888, his wife tell the staffant you to take good care of all the furniture in the house and not not let any of them get lost or broken, for i want to find everything just as it is now when we come back again four years from today. >> and they did return to the white house, winning the election of 1892. the life of frances cleveland as we continue our series on first ladies, live sunday night at 9:00 eastern on c-span, c- span3, c-span radio and c-span .org. >> what happened in the senate for three consecutive years, we do not even consider a budget resolution. i serve on the budget committee for eight years. throughout history, since 1974, many years where budget resolution is not pass. but three consecutive years, and this is finally the fourth, the house and senate has not reconciled their differences. this is supposed to be done by april 15. so congress is required to pass a budget and complete that process by april 15. here we are. they don't think they have to bother with it. it is no wonder everything has g

. >> after president grover cleveland loses his bid for reelection in 1888, his wife elsa staff, i wantedtake good care of of all the furniture and ornaments in the house and not let any of them get lost or broken. i want to find everything just as it is now when we come back again for years from today. to the whitern house, winning the election of 1892. the lice that the life of frances cleveland as we continue our series on first ladies, i've monday eight -- monday night at 9:00 eastern on c-span and c-span.org. "> " washington journal continues. yehle is a reporter for environment anal issues. whate we dig into sequestration cuts are meaning for national parks, give us a sense of who runs the national park service. is thejohn jarvis director. it is all under the department of interior. there are more than 400 parks across the country, and each of them are pretty individual. they each have their own budget. they each decide how to spend that budget. they have to follow certain rules and all of that, but they are all under the national parks service, but there is a lot of individuality.

. ♪ >> after president grover cleveland loses his bid for reelection in 1888, his wife tell the staff>> i want you to take good care of all of the furniture and ornaments in the house and not let any of them get lost or broken, for i want to find everything just as it is now when we come back again four years from today. >> and they did return to the white house, winning the election of 1892. michael francis cleveland as we --tinue hours series continue our series on the first lady's. what happened in the senate was notably for three consecutive years -- we do not even consider a budget resolution. i served on the budget committee for eight years. are years -- there when a budget resolution is not pass. ,ut three consecutive years the house and senate have not reconciled their differences. this is supposed to be done by april 15. when we file our taxes. so congress is required to pass a budget and complete that process by april 15. but he re-are sort of languishing. it is no wonder everything has gotten so destroyed and out of whack -- sequestration, the automatic cuts. major debts pi

. >> after president grover cleveland loses his bid for reelection, his wife tells the staff -- >> i won you take good care of all of the furniture and ornaments in the house. make sure nothing gets lost or broken. i want everything to remain as it is when we return for years from today. >> and they did return. firsttinue our series on ladies on c-span, c-span 3, at c-span.org. holding a presidential election next month. they have approved eight candidates out of more than 600 hopefuls. here's a look at what to expect in the election. i have a somewhat different position. after 10 rounds of nuclear negotiations, this particular ,ssue for all kinds of reasons it may be too hard to do. tooas become for both sides laden with testosterone. both sides have painted themselves into rhetorical corners. the concessions that we want, the iranians cannot give. what they want, we cannot give. pute it is time to perhaps the issue aside. is not important, but look for areas where the it iscan discover possible to say yes and the sky will not fall. whatever else it is. perhaps you can come back to