you know, everyone spent a lot of time worrying about whether grover norquist is happy. e political ecology in washington is there is not a prominent singular liberal grover holding up the same priorities that you and the guests have rightfully just outlined. and if we take a step back and look at where our country is at, if we look at this as a policy making process, the median income is at the lowest rate since 19 69. the upper 1% and upper upper brackets have more concentrated wealth than at any other point in our history. so i don't think the starting point should be the bush tax cuts, okay? i don't think the starting point should be what worked in the '70s. i think the starting point is that when you look at whether people have the ability, the raw ability after paying their basic monthly expenses to save for the end of life, to save for a time after they work, it's a bigger challenge now than it's been before. so that is where we have to start. not with what bush worked out during a period when, by the way, bush grew the deficit more than other administrations. >> i

grover norquist -- grover norquist. to compare car insurance rates side by side so you get the same coverage, often for less. that's one smart board. what else does it do, reverse gravity? [ laughs ] [ laughs ] [ whooshing ] tell me about it. why am i not going anywhere? you don't believe hard enough. a smarter way to shop around. now that's progressive. call or click today. [ grunting ] but don't just listen to me. listen to these happy progressive customers. i pluggein snapshot, and 30 days later, with snapshot, i knew what i could save before i switched to progressive. the better i drive, the more i save. i wish our company had something this cool. you're not filming this, are you? aw! camera shy. snapshot from progressiv test-drive snapshot before you switch. visit progressive.com today. ♪ lou: new york city police commissioner ray kelly tends to stay out of politics of any sort, so surprising when he enters the fray and this time at the expense of the president. a determined advocate of gun control quoted in today'

gingrich and the contract for america and we have been living in this gingrich contract for america, grover norquist party state of the republican party since then and so far, they have only been engaging in what grover called impure thoughts, which i love that's how he thinks of it, but just the very fact they would openly question the pledge is to remarkable because essentially lowers tax rates is the only thing republicans have stood for in recent elections. >> cane was using this very cute trick that republicans first starting using. they started floating this thing about oh, that pledge was made for another congress. i didn't seen it again thr the election that i yus won a year ago or two weeks ago, whatever the case may be and so peter king didn't invent that. >> that's something that grover was rebuffed. you can opt out. >> once you're in, that's it. >> yes. >> but look, the big good news for progressives here, there are two fund mamental values that he driven the economic conversation for republicans in this era. one is deficit is the biggest problem. here we are with the cliff, the curve, w

lou: we're back with the a-team, the fiscal cliff, grover norquist. step up and deal with the issue of entitlement. >> i believe he will, he must, and he has, to but with regard to norquist. only thing we're desperate about a man about to lose his power is a man about to lose his relevant, i think that republicans, have started to say, wait, we're facing a crisis, 20 year pledge. it is time to put that behind us. us. neil: why don't the -- lou: judg why don't the democras care whether he is elected or not? >> the republicans who took this pledge were elected taking the pledge. >> they bragged about it you know, 1994, could not have happened without grover norquist. and always about tern that theo personalty not policy, let's talk about the issue, is medicare going bankrupt or not, senator dirk durban saying we have to tackle medicare or it will be bankrupt in 12 years. let's talk about that instead of norquist, he is one of the most selfless guys in politics. you know this is a reagannesque parts of the soul of the republican party, if some want to br

i have to say something about grover norquist first. i tell you what, i like grover norquist. you don't have to agree with him, but i'm amused by him. my favorite grover norquist story when i covered congress in 2005 and 2006, somehow i did a story about politicians who were active as student politics at colleges. i think he had been or he had some thoughts on him. i called him up for a quote, and he didn't let me done. i didn't get the question out of my mouth about student body presidents. anybody who is a student body president ought to be drowned. >> wow, strong feelings. >> did he sign an oath to that in that regard? >> the thing go grover, he's an entertaining guy and he does wield a lot of power. not as much as people said, but chuck todd said he's a symbol of absolutism. dan, what i wanted to ask you about is something else coming into the picture here in these negotiations is the debt ceiling. if that's going to be -- we're going to sort of come up against that a couple months into the new year, not at the same time as this fiscal slope. obama said to boehner he wants

. >> grover norquist. >> you speak of grover norquist. >> he's an entertaining warrior. >> pledge mentality is really on the run right now. >> speaker boehner clearly wants a deal. >> he can't have one arm tied behind his back. >> the top 1%, only 42% of the wealth. >> 48.5 million people lived below the poverty level. >> we should ask the wealthy to start paying their fair share. >> the american sense of fairness, no one should pay more than 25%. >> today's republican party has imploded. >> they are in denial. >> they are looking for someone to blame. >> grover is no longer speaking for the party. >> they may not be willing to just die on this hill anymore. >>> good evening. i'm ezra cline in for lawrence o'donnell. the craziest thing is happening in washington right now. you've probably heard of the fiscal cliff or as lawrence likes to call it, the fiscal curve or as my friend calls t the austerity bomb. whatever you would like to call it, it does not look like it's going to happen. it doesn't just look like we're going to avoid a crisis. at this moment today, and this can change, it look

until this week was the most powerful person in washington who did not sleep in the white house, grover norquist, in a desperate attempt to stay relevant, wrote an op ed piece quickly agreeing with john boehner that the debt ceiling provides plenty of leverage for the gop. the brokenhearted norquist who seems to be getting dumped along with his antitax pledge could not bring himself to issue his usual marching orders in his op-ed piece for fear that that would only provoke more of them to break up with him in a very public way. norquist's rambling piece from the hill is the work of a shattered man. with republicans no longer locked in his passionate and unyielding embrace, he is to put it charitably, confused. on the strategic question of the day, will president obama go off the cliff rather than compromise his core principles, this is the best that the once certain grover norquist could come up with. will obama force the nation over the fiscal cliff to prove his mandate? maybe. joining me now are joy reid, managing editor of the grio and robert reich, former labor secretary and professor at the

grover. not so fast. mr. norquistobbyist, has long had a lock on nearly every republican in congress. he's the guy that keeps reminding us george h.w. bush lost the election after violating his read my lips, no new taxes pledge. >> if you want to go to the v t voters -- >> still, democrats are heartened by the new grover is over mini movement. although they shouldn't do the happy dance just yet. republicans will want payback, as in medicare, medicaid and social security. so for all of you who want tax hikes for the wealthy, what are you willing to give up in return? on social security? raising the retirement age to 70? on medicare, a total revamp is in instead of the government paying your medicare bills, you pay them with help from the government? you tell me. talk back question this morning, what should republicans expect in return for new taxes? facebook.com/carolcnn. facebook.com/carolcnn. your comments later this hour. >>> more republican lawmakers -- well, as i just said, they're willing to break that no new tax

joe the plumber. >> bill: it is grover norquist. and joe the plumber. > caller: joe the plumber doesn't matter anymore okay. oliver norquist matters. >> bill: grover norquist. >> caller: he's the only person that matters to the republicans is norquist and to be frank with you, the only way to deal with this, all right, is what we did in california. right now in california, we have a supermajority. all right. so basically the republicans can go sleep or don't show up and we're going to pass legislation anyway and jerry brown will get to do what he wants for the next two years. >> bill: absolutely. that's why we need a filibuster proof majority in the united states senate. dan, good to hear from you. nikki in seattle washington. hey, nikki. >> caller: good morning. i agree. oliver norquist should be put up against -- taken care of. i just wanted to suggest that your road kill jokes come to mind that that isn't respectful. i suggest president obama is now the decider in chief. he should use this opportunity to start sending that capital -- the democrats fai

grover norquist is not jesus.e is not going to speak from some mount and give us the ten commandments. and alan simpson is wonderful. he can't murder you, he can't burn down your house, he can't even blow down it hard. so the reality is you've got to make adjustments in the face of the american people's sentiment being, look, everybody's got to pitch in. aren't we americans? economic patriotism means everybody has to tighten the belt a little bit. >> i think it's interesting that you use the religious language there because grover norquist was on tv today saying rinse are having impure thoughts on raising taxes. a note of caution on all grover norquist deniers on tv. it's easy for lindsey graham and saxby chambliss to get on tv. but when it comes down to the actual vote, that's a lot harder for republicans to do, especially in the house of representatives where they can get a primary in 2014, get a lot of republicans up who could face tea party primaries. this is a small group that's jumped off the grover bridge.

not to the constitution, but to grover norquist. therefore they're not going to go along--even if boehner wants them to go along. both sides the president and democrats on one side, boehner and the republicans are basically maneuvering for bargaining position for what is going to be a long-term negotiation. >> eliot: they're just shadow boxing, i think that's exactly right. i wonder and i'm trying to assess--i have no knowledge of what goes on inside the republican party but i'm trying to discern if boehner has more strength now than he did when this negotiation took place lose yearlastyear. does he have the political strength because his party lost, can he look eric cantor in the eye and other republican leaders in the eye and say we have no choice but to cut a deal that is now on the president's terms? >> i think the strongest bargaining level he has is not so much that the republicans lost the election but beginning january 1st tax rates do go up particularly on the wealthy automatically. that's when the bush tax cut is basically

dominates over the other it results in that case it sounds like what you're saying is that if grover norquist didn't exist somebody would invent exactly remember the that how this started issue among republican primary vote ok and i don't reagan asked grover to start a t.r. because he wanted to have a grassroots conservative. sort of nonpartisan organization that would pressure people not to raise taxes this was this was right after reagan had brought jude wineskin as a as an advisor to the reagan administration when askew in one thousand nine hundred seventy six wrote a piece for i think it was human events. go on i'd have to go back and look but and he. was in earlier in the investor this is at the tail end that grover did this dude was out of their skin and in one thousand nine hundred one right he was one of the early guys but in seventy six he wrote this piece in which it was it was titled do you know the to santa claus there and his his it was the national observer sees me and his hypothesis was that the democrats had always been santa claus they brought you know soul security medicare

grover norquist's pledge. but now with the fiscal cliff looming, lawmakers who were once staunchly against raising revenues seem to be changing their tone a little bit. and grover norquist's influence may be fading fast. >> fewer and fewer people are signing this pledge. >> the pledge is dead. >> i'm not saying it's dead but i am saying the majority of members of congress see the fiscal cliff we want to sit down and we want to get something worked out. >> if you appropriate some of the money you achieved by eliminating deductions and loopholes to the national debt, even though that may technically violate the pledge, sign me up. that's a reasonable accommodation for a republican to make. >> jennifer: for the record, that was senators john mccain and lindsey graham so the question is this grover norquist's last stand? here with an answer is donnie fowler. donnie of course, democratic strategist and great political operative. welcome back into "the war room." is it grover norquist's last stand? >> we can only ho

revenue entitlement reform. >> eliot: jay carney said the white house welcomed those comments and grover norquisted to make light of them. >> some of them have engaged in impure thoughts. they have not actually voted for a tax increase. >> eliot: norquist drawing the red line of any revenue even if new funds came from closing loopholes and limiting deductions. >> if you do that, you've just killed tax reform for a generation. why? how do you get the rates down if you don't have the deductions in credits. what obama is hoping to do is raise taxes spend the money, kill tax reform for individual. >> eliot: meanwhile, some democrats would rather see the country jump off the fiscal cliff than agree to cuts in social security or other social programs. telling nbc news the cliff was more like a gentle slope and there would be plenty of time next year to mitigate it's affects if the deal could not be made. >> this is not an one-day event. thechy does not go into the tank on january 1st or january 2nd 37 all of the tax changes would be for next year's taxes. not this year's taxes. you don't see that immed

have to have it. >> well, grover norquist was at a political playbook breakfast with mike allen, we'll talk to mike in a few moments, here's norquist talking about what he calls impure thoughts. i think that has something to do with taxes, not sex. >> a handful of people having impure thoughts that under certain circumstances. >> impure thoughts? >> yes. >> what do you mean by impure thoughts? >> meaning they haven't -- >> family event so be careful. >> they've been thinking about maybe voting for tax increases. they haven't done it. >> is that what republicans do? >> they don't think about it. there's just a few of them talking about it on tv. the good news is most of them don't. >> do you have any impure thoughts about grover norquist? >> plenty. but you know, here's a good guy with a very bad idea and he was gathering up those signatures back in the '80s and early '90s when inflation was zip, when unemployment was zip, and anybody who would sign anything before they come to congress and hear the debate and participate in it hopefully and get into the floor, management and the mendin

a lot of people think it's grover norquist. is it grover?not him either. [ buzzer ] so who is it? you got to understand, the politicians take their orders from their donors. and grover norquist is not the mr. donor himself. he funnels the donor money. who is actually in charge? these guys. this is lloyd blankfine and david coast, they're also on this thing called the ceo fiscal leadership council. what is that? that's a bunch of ceos who got together and said, all right no more being zealot, increases or any kind of revenue increases fine. but obama is offering an awesome deal. let's take it, it's over. they're sending their messages out to the republican senators and congress saying it's time to make a deal. this deal still kicks ass for us. we'll cut the living hell out of what we call entitlements, social security and medicare and medicaid. lloyd blankfein listen to what he said about so-called indictmentment. >> you'll have to lower people's expectations, the entitlements and what people think they're going to get because it's not going-

and the pledge. >> i admire grover norquist. i think he's done a lot of good. i signed that pledge. i'm honored to do it. i don't think in this case we would be breaking it by making what are temporary tax cuts permanent. i think we'd be doing the right thing. >> cole is trying to do him a favor by saying if we do this, it won't be breaking your pledge. therefore, your pledge still exists. i mean, that's about as big a favor as he can do him at that point. >> he's trying throw poor grover a lifeline. but i think the damage has been done because you've had so many people saying, lindsey graham saying i would violate the pledge, end of story and i think the american public has become more aware of the pledge, how much it's dictated republican policy. you're supposed to be answering to us, the voter, so i think that has in addition to the fact that keeping these tax cuts in places so unpopular, i think just the idea i itself of the pledge has become politically toxic. >> i want you to listen to one more thing cole said today about

grover norquist's tax pledge could be history. and all eyes are now focusing on house republicans as talks to avoid going over that so-called fiscal cliff are picking up steam. joining me now, mark halperin, senior political analyst for "time" and msnbc and ruth marcus, columnist and editorial writer for the "washington post." to you, mark, what is your read about what we've been hearing the last couple of days about grover norquist, the pledge and how much running room the speaker does have to b negotiating a deal. >> i did a spit take with my fruity pebbles watching "morning joe" because eric cantor's tone was unlike anything i've ever heard. his office is saying oh, no, he's against raising marginal rates, but it's clear that in the scheme of things, the biggest piece is does john boehner have enough running room to strike a deal involving some new revenue. i still am of the belief that the vote in the house, which will be a cliff hanger no matter what happens amongst the leaders in the white house, it will be a tough vote. i t

let's listen to what grover norquist had to say. [video clip] >> the commitment he made to the people of georgia was not to me. it was a commitment to the people of georgia that he would go to washington to reduce government spending and to reform government and not raise taxes. if he wants to change his mind and become a tax increaser so we don't have to reform government, need to have that conversation with the people of georgia. he talks about my plan to increase debt, the only plan i think i supported is the paul ryan deal, which reduces the deficit, pays down the debt, does not raise taxes, and it is a written plan that senator chambliss actually voted for. so i think they caught him on a tv station and he said something scraps that did not make sense. >> have you thought about changing the pledged in any way? >> again, i cannot change the pledge, because t it is,o me. it is not like people are promising this to me. >> it was your group. everybody associates the pledge with new. but that is very kind of them. republicans and de

>> i admire grover norquist. he has a role to play in the search air i don't of the republican party. i have always been against ethanol subsidies, sugar subsidies, all of those things that i thought were wasteful and unnecessariful and the result of special interests. i am still opposed to rate increases. all of my career i have again to the floor and fault against the unwarranted subsidies that were directly a result lobbying rather than the national good. >>neil: you disagree when he says getting rid of those breaks or allowances, without corresponding spending cuts, that breaks the pledge? >>guest: no i don't if it breaks the pledge or not but i am opposed to the tax rate increase because i think it hurts the economy and i think most economists that i respect believe that but throughout my career i v gone to the floor time after time on the appropriations bills and the farm bills that have the important earmarks, the terrible and egregious subsidies which i have opposed all along and i am sure grower has been

van holen, again, there is a growing number of gop folk that is seem to be backing away from grover norquist's tax pledge. given that the very idea of raising taxes could be damaging to any republican who might be facing a primary in the next year, is there really enough support for shunning norquist at this point? >> you remember, even when george bush was president, democrats said they wouldn't cut taxes at all. bush ended up winning that pr battle and the conversation wasn't about whether they would cut taxes and how much they would cut taxes and conversely here what we have is the president moving forward with his agenda which was to raise taxes and now a republicans who had their heels firmly dug in are now saying instead of not raising taxes let's just talk about how much we're going to raise taxes, so it appears for the most part now conservatives are looking at changing some of the things they talked about and pledged when they were running for office and look this is a bigger issue to me. it is not necessarily about grover norquist or a pledge and what you run on as you head to congre

of the election behind him, and that gives him a good hand here. >> david let me ask you about grover norquistwho authored the pledge that so many reps signed and mike lee was the latest to say there's a lot of ways to skin a cat and back off the pledge. grover spoke to soledad on cnn. here was his comment. >> if you want to go to your voters and say, i promised you this, and i'm breaking my promise, you can have that conversation with them. you don't have an argument to we. you made a commitment to voters. >> he says he will try to unseat people that go against the pledge? is this a real risk that people that are up for re-election could lose jobs over this it or no? >> it is a real risk. it's not just grover norquist, it's the club for growth and other entities that do that. understand what direction these people leading the party in. they concede the republican party is a fundamental congressional and oppositional force. the whole point of the pledge is to say someone else is acting, and you are laying down in advance how you react. there's no plan you're going to act or leading. if the rep

function and a very kind of insular environment and the average american didn't know grover norquist was that they were ok well my congressman made this stance or that stance but they didn't see they didn't know it but we've had this so many times that i think people are starting to learn about what they know more about the fiscal cliff means and i think that there's going to be more accountability for the members but i also think that the gamesmanship of what you let the public know and how you kind of frame it isn't going to be the same it's not the same rules anymore because too much as out the public is too aware of these cuts and what these cuts but here's the frame if if. any kind of deal is cut before january thirty first or january first or december thirty first then functionally what it is doing is raising taxes because the bush tax cuts are still in effect if the bush tax cuts expire tax rates go up three points to go back to clinton levels and then republicans on january thirtieth can vote on a budget and say we're just going to keep taxes where they are and we're not we'r

grover norquist -- >> but it's true. you can hear it a thousand more times. >> it may true to republican party, but the reality is in the cnn/orc poll just taken -- >> i understand. >> hang on. hang on. would you prefer a budget plan with only spending cuts, 29%, would you prefer a mix of spending cuts and tax increases, 67%. a thumping, thumping majority of americans would prefer to see cuts in spending and tax increases. but you republicans led by grover norquist are absolutely intransigent about allowing any raise in taxation, yet the american public want you to do it. >> listen, first of all, there's a lot of things you said that aren't true. >> well, name one. >> nobody is -- first of all, no one is opposed to increasing revenues by closing some loopholes, but they -- >> that wasn't what i said. hang on. that wasn't -- that was not what i said. that wasn't what i said. >> they want commensurate tax cuts -- >> hang on. you said what i said wasn't true. reince, come on. i have to stop you here. no. you can't put words

. >> anti-tax crusader, grover norquist attacking the wives of republican congressman. >> i hope his wife understands that commitments last a little longer than two years. >> tonight, lee saunders on the grassroots blast to pass the middle class tax cuts. >> small business owner, lou krantz, on his meeting with the president. congressman, steve israel, on the democratic momentum on the fiscal cliff. plus. >> karen finney on the new bizarre attack on ambassador, susan rice. >> all of the sudden, we are the bell of the ball. we are here to say, it's time to start to dance. >>> latino voters help put president obama over the top. now, the hispanic caucus says they want action. representative luis gutierrez joins me tonight. >>> good to have you with us. thanks for watching. president obama is selling his economic agenda and using all the right tools. the president was surrounded today by middle class taxpayers at the white house as he pushed for an extension of the tax cuts for income below $250,000. he quas quick to highlight the break in the ranks with the republicans. >> i am glad to

the question here is do they have more of an allegiance to grover norquist than to the united states?o they pledge allegiance to grover or to america? >> simple. >> and americans can see this. this is not hidden behind the veil. if they turn out to have more of an allegiance to grover norquist and that republican orthodoxy, they will be a minority party for at least a generation. >> professor robert reich and dr. james peterson, wisdom galore. >>> next, the economy shows real signs of life. will a cliff dive send it spiraling downward? stay with us. >> thousand or millions. >> millions. >> okay. >> no, i'm sorry, greta, thousands. >> oh -- >> no. between $27 million and $40 million. >> okay. >> a year. ♪ aids is not going to take my baby. ♪ aids will not take our future. ♪ our weapons are testing... education, care and support. ♪ and aids... ♪ aids is going to lose. aids is going to lose. ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] while you're getting ready for the holidays, we're getting ready for you. tis the season. for food, for family, and now, something extra -- for you. >>> the most severely con

let's talk about grover norquist. no new taxes pledged. you said earlier in your career, you told cbs morning news earlier today, and i'm quoting now, you said you're not obligated on the pledge, adding the only thing i'm honoring is the oath that i take when i'm sworn in this january. so what exactly did you mean by that? did you suggest -- did you mean that under certain circumstances you would be ready to accept an increase in tax rates for the wealthy? >> well, i was just elected as you know, re-elected. and our campaign materials during the campaign spelled out that the only pledge i would be honoring would be the pledge of the oath of office that you make when you're sworn in. that's what my comments meant. i think republicans had shown a willingness to look at revenues as long as we have entitlement reform. i think those are the two ends of the spectrum. and it appears to me that speaker boehner has been shown flexibility in revenues and it appears to me the president has shown flexibility on entitlements. and the point of my op ed

bush asked who the hell is grover norquist anyway?how does this man hold so much political clout in the country? it was particularly because he was able to take the party. he was able to tell the republicans, look, i am going to be, you know, the way that you either get re-elected or don't get elected at all, but now the power is slipping. you and i both know this. people who run for office particularly for the u.s. congress, they think of themselves as smart and capable leaders. my bet is those generally in line id logically with norquist don't want to be controlled by some puppet master, and this election gives them the freedom to say, we'll have to make reasonable concessions here in order to keep the counted tr going off the fiscal cliff. >> melissa harris-perry, always great to talk with you. if you want to hear more thoughts for the good professor, catch her weekends show 10:00 a.m. both days on msnbc. >>> hillary clinton is already being endorsed for 2016, but will she run? [ male announcer ] the way it moves. the way it cleans

as for grover norquist. he told soledad o'brien today, although some republicans are discussing impure thoughts on television, they won't really act on them. >> lindsay graham says i would raise taxes if, and then he lists this incredible list of reforms and entitlements that the democrats would never give him. as i suggested to him, i said, senator you're offering to trade a tax increase for a pink unicorn that doesn't exist. >> whether he does or doesn't bend on taxes, pundits here in washington seem terribly impressed that senator graham and others are talking about going against grover norquist. outside the beltway, most people don't know grover norquist from grover on sesame street. standing up to a lobbyist, even a powerful one is only washington progress, not real progress. first step, maybe even a necessary one. but only that, so is going on sunday talk shows as both republicans and democrats are doing. and talking about flexibility. >> let the rates go up to 39. let us also take a look at the deduct

we'll talk to grover norquist.is heading. >>> my one on one interview with the legendary tony bennett. he's not slowing down after six decades in show business. his new documentary, new album and his new memoir. plus his real hobby which is painting. we're back in a moment. and with photo stream, you can share all the photos you want, with just the people you want. it's as easy as pie. mmmm..pie. i have a cold, and i took nyquil, but i'm still "stubbed" up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't unstuff your nose. what? [ male announcer ] it doesn't have a decongestant. no way. [ male announcer ] sorry. alka-seltzer plus fights your worst cold symptoms plus has a fast acting decongestant to relieve your stuffy nose. [ sighs ] thanks! [ male announcer ] you're welcome. that's the cold truth! [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus. ♪ oh what a relief it is! ♪ [ male announcer ] to learn more about the cold truth and save $1 visit alka-seltzer on facebook. [ male announcer ] to learn more about the cold truth let's

this pledge, this grover norquist pledge, how important is it to the republican party? >> i think it's very important. >> do you think it's important for people who signed the pledge to keep it? >> i think it's important to remember the problem we have which is a spending problem and, frankly, i think we look at it in terms of any family. if your family is going into debt, the first thing you do is say, hey, dad, get a second is job and raise more revenue. you look at the family budget and say how do we cut? where do we get back? once that's done, we are still a little short to pay down the debt, how can we bring in more revenue? so i think before -- for a lot of these members of congress who have committed to saying the problem is spending, we need to reform our out-of-control entitlements, that's where the focus should be. >> the base of the democratic party going to allow the president some leeway on this? >> we need to have everything on the table. let's be clear. >> social security? >> s ocial security is not contributing to the current debt or the deficit. social

long-time ally of norquist, jack abramoff who joins me in a moment said simply, news of grover's demise is premature. but in recent interviews, norquist has begun to sound like a petulant leader on the way out. >> the pledge is not for l.i.e. everybody who signed the pledge including peter king, who tried to weasel out of it, shame on him as the new york sun said today, i hope his wife understands that commitments last a little longer than two years or something. >> eliot: warren buffett continued to be the pragmatic voice of the majority. >> i think there is a general feeling among the american public certainly and even among many in congress that the rich like me have been getting away with low tax rates and it is time to make the tax rates more progressive. >> eliot: for more on the fiscal cliff negotiations, i'm joined by congressman peter welch, democrat from vermont. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> eliot: what should the deal look like? all of the chatter smoke and mirrors, what is the deal you would like to see? >> well, first of all, i do believe the middle class has

host: grover norquist, he is our guest. you can watch the full 30 minutes interview at 10:00 eastern time and 6:00 -- it three of those -- 3:00 for those on the west coast. it took a couple of days for the official tally to come from the sunshine state. this from "the chicago tribune." tens of thousands of schoolchildren are missing so many days of class, their educations are in peril. little is being done to get them back in school. back to your calls. is the tax pledge still relevant? caller: good morning. i think the tax cut pledge his treasonous and should be a violation of the oath of office for all of these people who are in office and ran for office. the other thing is that there was a debate between david stockman and daniel patrick moynihan 30 years ago about saying there was a deliberate attempt to bankrupt the country so that democratic leaders could never afford social programs. that is what the tax cut pledge to me seems to be about. host: thank you for the call. the other key player during the negotiations is

i do not like grover norquist, i will debate impurities just trying to avoid the problem he has. he is trying to raise taxes which slows economic growth. the tax issue is a very powerful issue going back to the revolution and civil war. the tax issue is important. >> the number of people who lost their bids for either election or reelection that signed the pledge,, what does it say about the political potency of the pledge and whether it will matters? >> the majority of the sitting members have taken the pledge. our republican candidates ran on the pledge and lost by two points by an incumbent. incumbents are supposed to raise their votes. reagan doubled his. clinton doubled his. bush increased his. i was very happy with the number. not every republican not to win, but most took the pledge. to people who took the pledge and broke it either cannot run again or were defeated in the last election. we played a role in focusing on that. we do want to argue if you promise you we're not going to raise taxes and you do, i am sure people in your district is aware that he made the commitme