grover norquist. the president does not even have the money to engage in this.e your mind? stuart: wait a second, i am not arguing for war. i am arguing for a strong and vigorous response to the gassing of children. >> so unpredictable. it is so relevant to our national security. stuart: judge, welcome back. and ramsey is still with us on obamacare. we have a deadline at the end of this month. will we do this? will we see it fully complemented? >> i think so. a total lack of leadership. you wait until these young people find out that they have to buy a $2000 health insurance policy when they happen where had to do it before. it is going to put a lot of small businesses out of business. it will be the largest tax increase on the middle class that has ever happened. it is not a tax, it is a penalty. this thing will be a mess. stuart: interesting. i am sorry we cut you short there, but it was good stuff. thank you. the president speaks, the dow is up 81. house speaker john boehner is vowing to fight president obama over raising the debt ceiling. he promises a whale

your boss, grover norquist says it's crazy, it's batty, don't do it. he's saying, you're crazy.ing to happen is, when the whole thing is over, then the center is going to keep the sequester funding. the sequester was the most controversial policy in all of domestic fiscal politics that we have seen in this country in several years. and it's going to be the base lane. sam, am i wrong about this? does it drive you crazy as it drives me crazy? >> yeah, it does, but it also speaks to some larger problem in our culture, where this notion that we're going to be punishing poor people for being poor, essentially. and what's also stunning is that we hear constant, and i think some of this is legitimate, that the economy, you know, from the right, that obama has tanked the economy, that the growth is sort of not really happening. there's some truth to that, but you can't turn around and say, and now we are going to punish the people who are suffering under that. >> explain to me why this vote today was not morally monstrous. >> smart people need to disabuse themselves of the idea that spe

grover norquist, who is head of americans for tax reform persuaded politicians never raise taxes. and steve moore is with us from "the wall street journal." so rome had high tax rates? >> not always. efforts were about 400 years they had no real direct internal taxes. because they looted their neighbors. john: we are not advocating that. [laughter] >> even that wasn't enough. so they had dramatically higher taxes. taxes started with tariffs. constantine had the first one. property taxes, people were actually abandoning their property. things got towards the end, very rough and it's a part of why things did not work. >> one penalty of being sold and slavery. >> or killed. >> that is what they do and the modern-day irs. the only way they would get it was to sell into slavery to get currency. john: by 1% was the highest income tax. >> over is exactly right. they kept collecting more and more money in the outlying areas and there wassa massive revolt. >> that is happening in america today. people are sick and tired of seeing their tax dollars in washington. that is one of the reasons

grover norquist, who is head of americans for tax reform persuaded politicians never raise taxes. and steve moore is with us from "the wall street journal." so rome had high tax rates? >> not always. efforts were about 400 years they had no real direct internal taxes. because they looted their neighbors. john: we are not advocating that. [laughter] >> even that wasn't enough. so they had dramatically higher taxes. taxes started with tariffs. constantine had the first one. property taxes, people were actually abandoning their property. things got towards the end, very rough and it's a part of why things did not work. >> one penalty of being sold and slavery. >> or killed. >> that is what they do and the modern-day irs. the only way they would get it was to sell into slavery to get currency. john: by 1% was the highest income tax. >> over is exactly right. they kept collecting more and more money in the outlying areas and there wassa massive revolt. >> that is happening in america today. people are sick and tired of seeing their tax dollars in washington. that is one of the reasons

we're going to talk to grover norquist, founder for americans tax reform.going to talk to pimco about the yellen effect on the markets and the treasuries. i thinks he was the yellen guy probably all along. right now as we head to break, check out the "squawk box" market indicator. here at fidelity, we give you the most free research reports, customizable charts, powerful screening tools, and guaranteed 1-second trades. and at the center of it all is a surprisingly low price -- just $7.95. in fact, fidelity gives you lower trade commissions than schwab, td ameritrade, and etrade. i'm monica santiago of fidelity investments, and low fees and commissions are another reason serious investors are choosing fidelity. now get 200 free trades when you open an account. >>> welcome back to "squawk box" this morning. live in washington, d.c. today, five years after the financial crisis. but there's another fight over the debt limit and it is looming with the federal government expected to run out of money on october 1st without congressional action. grover norquist, fo

said grover norquist, who is my favorite sesame character.t's such a long phrase people will never say it. >> you know who also lies? this fella a. >> well, that was interesting, i guess. tracy -- >> own it. that was very interesting. >> not for me. tracy, what -- why do they have to make up new words? isn't that dumb in. >> so let me clear up my language, it's total bs, it's a tax. it's a total tax and it's more bs that you think you are going to buy this new phrase or coin phrase. anything that the irs is involved in is tax related. it's a tax. >> tom, thoughts? >> i wonder why john roberts ruled the way he did when he -- it made no sense. and he kind of gave them this loophole and now they can go back on it. now they admit that it was not a tax, but it does not matter, we are saltddled with this thing. >> he ruled according to the constitution. >> he thought, i'm not going to overturn it, it's your job, voters, and we let him down. >> i think it's because he is a rhino. >> animals cannot be on the supreme court, bill. >> yes, they can. if

we're going to be live tonight with a special edition, at 11:00 p.m., we'll be out front, grover norquist they will with me. meanwhile, our coverage continues with wolf blitzer. >>> erin thank you, as the shutdown gets closer, hard line republicans once again pushing legislation, voting on it just moments from now that funds the government but delays implementation of health care reform. a bill the senate won't pass and the president won't sign. at the same time, moderate republicans, many of whom also oppose the health care law staging a party rebellion against tactics they see as bad policy and worse politics. but right now, those voices are not, at

that i today had a chance to talk to grover norquist, who is outside the capitol with some members of congress from the republican side who were talking about that piece of the legislation that's expected to be voted on tonight. and he said senate democrats are not thinking about what it's going to look like in the tv ads run against them when they are held to public account by the votes that they take. by turning done things he says reasonable people in the country want to see. by that they're saying why have members of congress and their staff get a benefit that the public doesn't get. so that's the kind of deep in the weeds negotiating and political rang willing that's going on here. but it's going to be a very late night. ed? >> okay. kelly o'donnell, nbc news, capitol hill correspondent, appreciate it. thank you so much. >>> and one thing that i think is the backdrop of all this, the conservatives have tried to get in the minds of the american people and in some respects worked. we are all confused about obamacare. that none of us understand any of it. oh, it's very easy to under

stranglehold over the republican party, and to certain extent still does, a guy i went to college with, grover norquist, and he believes, as he is famous for saying, that government should be made so small that it could be drowned in a bath tub. so this was a big choice. a big choice election, and i wanted to put it in some context, but there was also some personal history of some of the major players involved that made the series of stories i wanted to tell that are not known publicly, and one i wanted to start with actually begins on a pitch black night in the florida everglades, in 2005. and a car runs off the road and plunges into a canal, and the woman driving the car -- the car sinks to the bottom of the canal, and passersby stop. one tried to open the door and breaks his arm. and the screaming for help, and the 38-year-old man working at a motorcycle dealership nearby hears the screams and he sprints to the scene, and he is told, she is again, dude. she's gone. and he ignores what the passers-by said and he jumps into the canal, and finally, after several dives, he manages to get the door open b

. >> we had grover norquist on the show and he was saying, it's all going to be fine. we're not holding anybody hostage. >> he may not be but the tea party caucus is. >> grover norquist, you could put him in the reasonable person. he's not a rhino. this is over obama care, not tax hikes. it's a fight for 30 to 40 house republicans who live and dye over obama care. >> when you lost the house in 2010 it was over obama care. when pelosi lost her speaker ship it was over obama care. >> when the president was re-elected it was over obama care. >> no, it wasn't. >> you can't pick and choods which election -- >> why did he not get 39 -- you think being re-elected was a stamp of approval on "bomb ma care? that's b.s. that's b.s. >> it was in every debate with mitt romney. >> a lot of different things. >> you cannot pick and choods which elections. >> it shouldn't have been rammed through the way it was. >> that may be true. >> poison the water for -- it's one of the reasons that the jobless rate has remained suh high, the economy -- >> you can say evidence schmevidence. >> why

and all of these people, grover norquist and all of these people, must be very influential. i just wish the republican congress would work for the people and not for the lobbyists. democrat, what do you think about a potential government shutdown? caller: it is disastrous. we are trying to get on our feet. we have a war, we have all of these problems, and you want to put this country through this absurd exercise every three months? the president is totally right. -- thebeen approved by supreme court passed it. it is a done deal, law, and it is just absurd. host: all right. this is "the new york times" this morning -- host: in several of the papers -- i don't know if it is in your paper this morning -- but in several of the major papers is ofs ad by howard schultz starbucks. a full-page open letter on open carry in starbucks. the issue. here is just a little bit about -- of what mr. schultz writes here. "today we are respectfully requesting customers at starbucks in our stores were eating areas even in states where open carry is permitted, unless they are law enforcement pers

grover norquist and myself, we said delay the personal mandate for a year, delay it for a year and a it's so unpopular. but they didn't. so it's ping-pong. >> the paddles literally. >> senate, house, senate, house. my guess is it comes back to the house, boehner accepts it but he says there will be a sequester at the 2014 level so the spending goes down. that's my sense. >> you mentioned the possible delay, the individual mandate. there are people around the world trying to say what's the way out? are you saying there's no way in whichi which trying to punt on that is not an option here? >> it's not going to be ready. the debt ceiling, point number two and you can't hardly separate these because they're so close in timing. if you look at the debt ceiling, he has a whole laundry list, the pipeline, tax reform. he also has a delay of obama care, which could be switched in the defunding of obama care. now, his aides aren't talking to me this morning yet. on that they're saying they don't think they're going to win on the defending but they'll come back on a one-year delay on the debt ce

youlanced budget -- if grover norquist plan to destroy the government, don't let the government of democrats, act like the democrats -- act like the deficit matters when it really doesn't. caller: i absolutely think it is worth it. we have had so much trouble getting health care where i am living in a world area. it has nothing to do with race or anything else this has to do with what the american people want. we want to stand up and be heard . we have been heard. it is about time. i hope this goes through. i am praying for. i think it is best for the whole country. we don't need any more debt. we need to shut this down and stop it and make things right again. you may have heard some of the president's comments before i started the show this morning. a little bit more from the forddent who spoke at a plant in missouri yesterday. he chastised republicans over the vote that they were planning and over efforts to stop the health-care law. here's what he had to say. >> unfortunately, there is a faction on the phone at the republican party right now. it is not everybody, but it is a big faction w

even grover norquist said they wouldn't. >> '95 and '96 is when they did it. the republicans in congress got blamed for it. you start thinking about who is going to get the blame, how this comes back around, it's tough when you're hold ago loaded gun like that. >> i don't know what's going to happen with -- you heard boehner said earlier, in case you haven't noticed, the house does not want obama care at least as it's currently constructed does not want obama care to -- >> they also said he's not going to make any suppositions on what the senate will or won't do, but he's sure that they will have something they get closer agreement next weekend. so he's planning on this going all the way in the next half hour. >>> we will tell you what buffett had to say about the economy and the consumer. they've got a really good idea about what is happening. bank of america has one out of every two households they're doing business with. buffett has a wide variety of businesses. >>> come up, why microsoft's ceo steve boalmer says it's difficut to go to work. firsts, ever wo

first, grover norquist. obamacare, we are told, is a good idea. they have to make it mandatory. we are told, is a good idea, but washington is exempted from it. we have seen the president give exemptions and delay is to organize labor, big business, insurance companies, and now, to official washington. to say that washington should live by the same rules as the rest of the country in obamacare and other things. this legislation by the leadership here is very important, and i am glad we are focused on this. this is one of the things that even harry reid's senate is going to have to agree to. >> thank you, grover, and next, with an activist group. >> thank you, senator, and thank you all for your leadership. just in the past week, we sent 26,000 letters trying to force an amendment on this. there is an exclusion. thekly, what we saw on floor today was absolutely shameful. we saw harry reid and every single democrat say they are willing to shut down the government to ensure that only the privileged few have this, only the privileged few are protected from the ravages, and the large

norquist is head of the tax reform. he pledges politicians to never raise taxes. economist steve moore covers these issues for the wall street journal. groverigh tax rates? >> not always. at leafirst for 400 years they no direct internal taxes because they looted their neighbors. >> we are not advocating that, right? >> we got to talk to canadians but that may not work out. evenlyi enough. they had dramatically higher taxes the amount of money they spent on the armies cost more than they were able to extract. taxes that started with tariffs. >> they had ter rifs, these were augustus, constantine brought us the first income tax. all of this stuff we are now living with we were looking at the property taxes. so prouf that people were abandoning their property than just saying leave them alone. then you had to pass laws to not let you leave your property they had to stay there and farm it so they could loot you. toward the end it got very, very rough and it is part of why things didn't work out. >> one penalty was being sold into slavery. >> or killed. >> modern day irs. that is what they do. when they would demand payment in gold and silver t