we bring in americans for tax reform president grover norquist. me take a stab at one, grover, you don't like the idea of hiking the gasoline tax. >> correct. this is not only not part of tax reform, it's opposed to tax reform. liz: okay. but go out on a limb here. why are you against this? especially considering that for those of us who use the roads and last i checked that's just about everybody even if you don't have a car, you're traveling somewhere unless you're home bound, isn't it better to hike the gasoline tax when oil prices and gas lean price -- gasoline prices are as low as they are? we're not as low as a year ago, but at $2.37 a gallon for the national average, it would be less painful now. [laughter] >> but more painful if prices go up. look, there's no reason to raise the gasoline tax. politicians don't spend money on roads because they raise money promising to put it on roads. they spend it somewhere else. liz: okay. what if there was a designation or it was forcefully earmarked that any revenue that came from that tax has to be use

grover norquist.loomberg. ♪ miles, give or take a mile, that kevin cirilli has walked from riyadh to tel aviv, waiting for the president of the united states. mr. netanyahu with a fractious israel. the president will then go 33, maybe 36 miles. somehow the legendary jerusalem traffic will not be a problem as he moves southeast from tel aviv to jerusalem. of course the pageantry in jerusalem. steven saywell with us this morning. it is always fractious with israel politics, isn't it? steven: yes, absolutely. francine and i were talking about this during the break, how does this affect markets -- our view is that the biggest impact is the oil price. whether this increase in the oil price we've had continues. probably the big issue here is the agreement of saudi and russia to these cuts. that is what the markets focused on. how credible can we take that commitment? we think that is really driving this spike higher. for us in markets, we think that is the key point. francine: thank you so much, steven sayw

domestic agenda for more on the president's budget plan and plans for tax reform let's bring in grover norquistat's taken i think, grover, but i always use it for you. president of americans for tax reform, and just hearing your title, and reading the lead story in "the wall street journal," your tiern life, you're the president of an organization that is for tax reform, and it's not working. it's not happening. i'm reading this in the journal. did you read this? let me read it real quick to you, grover. the gop bid to rewrite the tax code falters. the boldest ideas for changing the tax code are either dead or on political life support. the clear winner is the status quo. i mean that's what you wake up to this morning as the president of americans tax reform you want to i mean it's depressing. >> the one thing that isn't going to happen is the status quo continuing. the consensus in the house, the white house is fairly broad. you're going to read six, count them six headlines like that between now and when we radically reform the tax code. there's a consensus to go to 15 or 20, on the corporate

american dream house government often kills us as it does it keeps growing and it depresses me bed grover norquistling president for americans for tax reform has fought that tax simplification for 30 years and you have failed. is less simple than it ever was taxes are higher why are you so cheerful? >> the majority of the members of that task -- of the house we have not had a tax increase as long as the republicans controlled the house we stopped the bleeding as long as they can hold up one part of the government. obama what did trillions of higher taxes and republicans said no tax increase period we have to run a half trillion of spending restraint with 23 percent of gdp that is the federal government to stop the bleeding and it takes new leadership. john: politician say we have to get rid of this. >> is the one big victory the american people have against illicit and obamacare. but look to the states to see freedom flourish. home school was illegal and allstate's 30 years ago ted million are now being home school that is breaking into the monopoly. [applause] thirty years ago nowhere did a gover

diversion from the russian probe, although it seems to always entangle people again and there was grover norquistn arguing for grover believes in no tax whatsoever. >> none. >> he doesn't want tax on rugs. he wants rugs to be just like running, forget tax, tyou know, to nail down rugs. the marx brothers, duck suit. >> that went a little too deep on me for that, sorry. >> it's not all that deep but funny been. >> on grover you're right. >> he's saying something will happen. >> pushed back on "the journal" story that said the boldest ideas are on life support and he says there is consensus on all the things and we'll read the obit on tax reform six more time before it gets done. >> 2025. >> no, something small will get done. if not we'll hold out hope for 2018. it would help some of the valuations. there's a company that you talked about on friday that is probably the strongest retailer in the country, that is alta. i mention it because the tax rate is so high. lot of the retailers need and restaurants pay high taxes. >> they do, they are typically amongst the higher taxpayers. with the border adju

we have grover norquist joining us this talk about the tax reform proposals, the plan, where things stande thinks should be happening, and the lines are being drawn when it comes to those things in washington. still watching the markets here. s&p 500, if it's up today, it will be the first time in four years that we've seen eight days in a row of gains for the s&p 500. both the s&p 500 and the nasdaq coming off of new highs once again. we also have robert kaplan, tall also a fed president. he's a voting member of the fomc, he will join us with steve liesman at 7:10 to kick around what he thinks is happening with the economy and the possibilities for other potential rate hikes. june is the month that they are expected to hike again. plus the airlines have been front and center for some time when it onlies to customer service, what they think about things. this morning we have michael o'leary, the head of ryanair. we'll see what he thinks about how the airlines have been treating customers. this morning, the winner of the indianapolis 500, takumo sato will join us. he's ringing the opening

and the truth is as atr, grover norquist has said, the tax is -- more money could be raised in other ways. in some ways, the gas tax is a kind of way to avoid making tough choices. you have to decide how much money or how much people should be taxed and have to decide on agenda from within the revenues that you have. you don't say hey, let's raise the gas tax. >> you think how costs are going up for everything. wages, wages haven't budged in 20 years and yet the cost energy, the cost of housing, the cost of food, all these things keep going up. the average american would be unfairly penalized in this. but to be clear, donald trump didn't say he wanted to do this, just that he was open to hearing a proposal, as he's to open hearing a proposal on anything. >> absolutely. the truth is this president has said on many things to people surprised he's wling to consider all sorts of things, his suggestion he might talk to the north korean leader was one of the examples. he's trying to suggest he's open-minded about trying to fix things. trish: you're open-minded until you make the decision,

. >> i'm a little disappointed we do not have grover norquist on the stage in a bathtub. >> funny youask because i'm trying to get, set up an event with grover. i want, i'm the same. [laughing] >> grover, if you are watching -- >> make sure you bring the bathtub. great prop. i just want to say i think a lot of what vanessa is talking about is narrative. i don't think that we have created a narrative about taxation that people can understand and gravitate to. the narrative that we've got now is all topsy-turvy, for three or four years we've been told, the narrative has sunk in, that if we give people at the top the money, that we are all going to benefit at the bottom. the only thing that is trickle down quite frankly is misery. for example, i don't think most people know this, but companies like walmart and mcdonald's actually have seminars to tell the people look, if you can't make it on the salary that we're paying you come here some government programs you can go to. the waltons are worth $40 billion. we're subsidizing their employees. we are subsidizing their wealth with our tax d

grover norquist, president of americans for tax reform, joins us now. more or less what everyone sort of thought it was, and it brings back the debate here, the headlines all focused on the 23 million more americans who won't have health care, not the fact that obamacare has been an unmitigated disaster. >> well, it's worse than that. their numbers are nonsense. they might have pointed out that they claimed there would be 24 million americans in the exchanges now, and it's 10. so when you're off by those kind of numbers in predicting obamacare as it's supposed to be growing off by a factor of, you know, 100%, the then tell people that you know what's going to happen is nonsense. they say obamacare's going to have 18 million people in the exchanges next year if nothing happened. it's been going down from 12 to 10. they claim it's going to be 18? so from ridiculous numbers ty say it will fall. they also count the fact that more than 10 million americans are forced to buy obamacare because of mandates, and they wouldn't do it without the mandates. so the if

if you talk to grover norquist, if you take the bat off the table, there's no revenue there and you don'treform he thinks you're talking about a 28% rate which is basically what obama was proposing. and frankly, i think we can all agree 28% is not necessarily going to make you competitive, if that's the goal, relative to the rest of the world. >> well, i think you pointed out there's a real tough tradeoff here. the more you lower the rate, you have two problem. one is you have to get rid of credits and deductions and exclusions. some of which have focused very much on incoming domestic investment. and unless you're willing to give those up, it's hard to lower the rate. if you refuse to raise individual rates it gets even harder. so i don't think we're going to get a dramatic cut in the court tax rate. i think we'll get a small cut. i think the problem with the border adjust tax is it's not a dumb idea. it's very complicated. the system isn't ready for it. so it will come back in some form. for now, i think they're going to settle for a modest tax cut. income some commission to study more

we begin with the jobs report, americans for tax reform, grover norquist, 211,000, do you see the number feels like the job market is gaining momentum. >> it is progress but remember in the year when reagan's tax cut took effect in january 1983, we created 4 million jobs. almost 400,000 jobs a month. we can get that 211,000 number up higher with tax reform. this is a good start with deregulation. charles: one month where we had 1 million jobs created in a single month, mind-boggling stuff with a smaller population. i had gary cohen on the show and he is pretty firm about the fact that donald trump is going to try to get us a 15% rate, what are your thoughts? >> extremely helpful. the highest in the world, i was just in australia, they are at 30%, second stupidest and there, and from their treasury office, if you go to 15 the rest of the world will follow. a worldwide period of growth as other countries move towards hour 15 which will put us above ireland and the european average. charles: some conservatives out there who think this could be too much. what happens with debt? the cbo will