with us, former senator chuck hagel, republican of nebraska, cory booker, democratic mayor of newark, tea party freshman congressman adam kinzinger, presidential historian doris kearns goodwin, and nbc's andrea mitchell. captions paid for by nbc-universal television >>> good morning. after the dramatic friday night breakdown of talks over a so-called grand bargain deficit reduction package, congressional leaders met with the president for less than an hour saturday morning. speaker boehner spent the rest of the day working on an alternative plan to slash spending, several trillion dollars, and avert a catastrophic default by that august 2nd deadline, as we pointed out, just nine days away. word came last night after a meeting of republican and democratic congressional leaders that the speaker wants to announce the outlines of a plan as early as later today to reassure investors before asian stock markets open for monday trading. however, still so many questions remain. here to try to answer some of them, the president's chief of staff bill daley. welcome back to "meet the press." >> t

this year it's $1.5 trillion. >> this is the question, senator hagel, is this extreme principle or isa form of taking an issue and using that issue to say, you know, absolutely no give, no matter whether there's a crisis looming financially or not? >> well, first, democracies can only work through consensus. there is no way it can work in any other form or fashion. doris talked about it. second, there is another dynamic to this, too, david, we haven't touched on yet, and that is that we are trapped in a 20th-century government structure, trying to deal with 21st-century challenges, issues and problems. and you can take down all the committees and all the dynamics and the rules in the house and the senate and so on. the fact is, we've got an institutional problem as well as a personal problem. the only other thing i would say about consensus and compromise -- doris, again, mentioned this. when you look back in the history of this country, as john mccain once said, politics is not bean-bagging. and it's been rough. it's been rougher, actually, than what we've seen it today. it's just mo

hagel is an interesting idea. there is disaffection. in 2010 people voted for republicans in congress but they didn't like them. they voted for them even though they disapproved more than they approved. there is an idea out there, yes, we want something different. people underestimate how powerful the two parties are. there are minute things that matter and cost lots of money. getting on ballots in all of the states, collecting signatures, that's why you need a rich guy and/or gal. i just don't see anybody out there. chuck hagel in theory on paper, but is he going to put in the money? it's too much of a pain. >> howard fineman brings up the ballot access. angus king talked about a group called americans elect. there was another group four years ago they're trying to get on the ballot. if there is a group that says here you go, we've got ballot access, there's a lot of politicians whose egos will say if you build it, maybe i will come. >> i think that's true. chris is right, that's the way it would work this time. i'm a little unclear as

hagel is an interesting idea. the thing that i feel like this and howard touched on it. yes, there is clearly disaffection. in 2010, people voted for republicans in congress but they didn't like them. they voted for them vn though they disapproved of them. there's an idea out there, yes, we want something different. the people underestimate how powerful the two parties are. there are minute things that matter. getting on ballots in all the states. that's why you need a rich guy, or gal, and i don't see anybody out there. is he going to put in the money? it's too much of a pain. >> howard fineman brings up the battle axes. king talked about the group four years ago, they are trying to get on the ballot. if there's a group that says here you go, we have ballot access, there's a lot of politicians whose egos say there it is. >> i'm unclear as to how the new come pain laws and the freedom for superpacks and so forth that can spend unlimitly to allow big money people, who if they didn't run on their own could help fund to make sure they get ballot access. when i first started

i don't see -- yes, chuck hagel in theory on paper. put in the money, do the collecting.t's too much of a pain. >> sure. angus king talked a group called americans elect. another group four years trying to get on the ballot. if there is a group that says, here you go. we got ballot access. there's a lot of politicians whose egos will say, well, if you -- if you build it, maybe i did come. >> i think that's true, and chris is right. that's the way it would work this time. i'm a little unclear how the new campaign laws and how the freedom to have super pacs and so forth to spend unlimitedly would allow big money people who if they didn't run on their own could help fund making sure one of those parties could get ballot access. when i first started in the '80s getting ballot access was nearly impossible. a lot of losses and -- it's now possible to do it. you need a lot of money and can do it and can get on in all 50 states. that would be the way it would have to happen. >> chris, one more poll, msnbc "wall street journal" 308. inconsistent. 31% believe the two-party system i

in 2008, he went off to do the obligatory trip and was going there with senator jack reed and chuck hagel from nebraska. it is a 14 hour flight from washington into kuwait. for most of that 14 hours according to both senators, what was on this senator's mind was a vietnam and the lessons because he was going to afghanistan and the iraq and wanted to learn from these two men what was the relevance and is a possible i missing something? and kept asking questions about vietnam over and over again there were both amazed that he sat there and listen to in the first time going into his first national security council meeting, the first point* he makes to his people is "afghanistan on is not vietnam" why does he have to say that at the beginning embassy thinks there is a possibility of getting into another vietnam? and bruce who does books for the brookings press at that time was thinking through the firstenergy paper on of guinness and into bruce told less the ghost of vietnam walk the corridors of the white house every day. >> period explain to me how would is those close can affect different

i meeting with former senator chuck hagel tomorrow in washington d.c., who i'm told what 27 copies of the book and gave unto the president president and went to the vice president and secretary of defense and i haven't talked with the senator yet about it, but my suspicion is he is a little uncertain that the intervention libya is a good thing. it always is tricky. we have to be careful about taking an historic figure in taking it 50 or 60 years later. their principles in the way approach things. and eisenhower generally do not like brushfire wars. he handed the one in korea have refused to go into egypt. he just didn't do it. and he dislikes very much marginal military interventions. he believed if he went in -- clonmel hits the credit for the doctrine of overwhelming force these days and i often think that general powell like to remind us that dwight eisenhower talked about that all the time. but of course eisenhower -- anyway, overwhelming force. the trouble with partial interventions as they spin out of control, that they are very hard to manage in the libya and what appears to be

i'm meeting with former senator chuck hagel tomorrow in washington, d.c. who i'm told bought 27 copies of the book. and gave one to the president and one to the vice president, one to the secretary of defense. i haven't talked with the senator yet about it but my suspicion is he's a little uncertain that intervention in libya is a good thing. it always is tricky -- we have to be very careful about taking a historic figure and applying them to a situation 50 or 60 years later. but there are principles in the way eisenhower approached things that are worthy of consideration. and eisenhower generally did not like brushfire wars, what he called brushfire wars. he ended the one in korea. he refused to go into indochina or egypt. he just didn't do it. and he disliked very much marginal military invention. he believed -- colin powell gets the credit for the doctrine of overwhelming force these days. and often think that general powell ought to remind us dwight eisenhower talked about it all the time but he got it from the great pyramid general but overwhelming fo

went on a tour to iraq and afghanistan at that point he went with two senators, to colleagues, chuck hagel and jack reid, it was a bipartisan group and on the long flight... >> rose: both have been military officers. >> yeah. and he quizzed them about vietnam because he spoke with both of them and, you know, what was he asking them about? it was vietnam. the whole long flight over to the middle east. >> rose: so what was he asking them. >> he was asking them about... >> rose: because this is the core of the legacy. >> exactly. >> the lesns of the war. what is it... if i become president of the united states, he asked the two senators, what is it about vietnam that i really is to know and learn and make it part of me so that i don't make the same mistakes in afghanistan. that was very much on his mind. >> rose: it is that sort of process ao-- you and i were talking about him as a leader-- at made him so attractive as a leader. he was askin questions "what are the lessons here?" >> absolutely. >> rose: and where today h is is a diffentuestion but continue with that. he wanted to know what ar

kay bailey hutchinson sponsored a bill, richard lugar, chuck hagel backed it, and can't get any traction? why? because obama proposed it. it seems to be a uniting factor in the republican party that whatever obama proposes, they can't support. we have to worry about getting the business of the country done and not worry about who gets credit for it because, if we get into this game, we have a national energy policy to solve, immigration, health care. we've got to get the jobs done. and oh, by the way, we've got to deal with the debt ceiling. we can't worry about who gets credit. we need to get these things done too fast. >> fareed zakaria, thanks for coming. >> my pleasure, tom. >> another word out of washington of a deal on the possible debt ceiling. if anything comes up in this hour, we'll get it right to you. >>> just ahead, the flames of scandal seem to be engulfing ever more papers on london's fleet street, and that is raising the temperature of an iconic new york newspaper man who says stop the presses. it's time to throw the con men out. miles per gallon on the highway. how does i

. >> did you ever hagel with an auto dealer over the price avenue car. >> every time. i love it.? >> we do. we can debate what to cut, how much to cut, when to cut it. we can't argue about whether or not we have to balance our budget. because we're going bankrupt our country if we keep spending. >> if the alternative to -- the alternative to raising taxes is the country goes into a default and they say, look, it's going into a default unless you guys give us something. would you then resist any increase in revenues? >> first of all we won't default. we may have to cut government programs. but we'll pay our debt as they come due. over 70% of our total expenses come in from tax revenue. if we never raised the debt ceiling we have to go back to 2003 spending levels. we'll pay our debt. it's irresponsible for secretary geithner to suggest we won't. it will be disruptive. i'm not pretending it wouldn't. you would have to begin to cut things that we don't want to cut. >> have you seen this argument where under the 14th amendment the president has got an obligation to see the debts are

he went over there with two senators, hagel and reid. asking two colleagues not about afghanistan, but about vietnam, over and over again. one question after another. basically, how do you avoid the pitfalls of vietnam in afghanistan. >> he inherited afghanistan and iraq the way nixon inherited vietnam, 535,000 troops in vietnam when he got into the white house. bush i learned the lessons. there was a big push from the neoconservatives to go to baghdad. bush i did that and said this is what everybody signed on for. we are stopping at the iraqi border. he got the lesson right. >> for the record, george w. bush spit out his coffee and wept for it. marvin, go ahead. >> i agree with you, pat. the relevant point is vietnam was in his point. he did not want to go too far or get trapped in baghdad. this is one of the most fascinating things, you can get in on the act, too. the way one of the presidents after another, vietnam sits there just hanging around and even if you wanted to dump it, you couldn't. >> i asked obama about this a year ago an