what we did for a few years and we don't anymore, we used to have debate hardee's all over the united states sponsored by the commission. people would gather in libraries and there'd be a moderator that they would choose. the minute the debate was over, they would turn off the sound so you would not hear if it was sam donaldson in the old days or chris matthews or whoever it might be. there was a discussion about what they heard. we found it to be fascinating and very different from people who then hang on. the people who say they are experts every night i turn television on and they say here is a republican expert. i have never seen that person before and i have been around. he is usually 15 years old. it is amazing. >> let me tell you a great story about the spin afterwards. in 1988, my assignment in the general election was to be the press secretary. if you remember the debate, it produced one of the most famous moments. but it was very interesting because those who were seated in the audience, including the senator's wife, came out of it saying, oh my gosh, we lost the debate beca