but the inquiry that happened in the inquiry of harold shipman was hundreds of deaths and it concludedrobably more likely than not involved in the deaths of hundreds of his patients. i think you a thing with lucy letby and the unit which normally saw about three deaths in a year, saw 13 deaths in the space of one calendar year not all of the steps resulted in murder charges in this case there might be some reasons for that it might be that the crown prosecution service felt there was not enough evidence to bring charges on all of the steps but to go from an average of three to 13 and a year, a leap of nearly five times that needs looking into and that's just extraordinary and a beggars belief that giving those numbers given those consultants were raising concerns with management those concerns are not acted on. another question is nhs trusts looking at what happened here and other direct lessons that can be learned already what i have to wait for the results of the inquiry? i really think that will probably have to wait. there have been changes put in place over years we had various tr

in the early 2000, both of those led to inquiries into what happened, and they harold shipman inquiryn extensive inquiry that led to some significant changes in the qualifications that doctors had to revalidate themselves every year, changes to the general medical council in the wake of the harold shipman trial and a public inquiry that followed, and yet here we are, 20 years later, facing similar awful, awful outcomes, when someone who was meant to be in one of the most caring professions has committed such appalling crimes. and i think people could legitimately ask what else would a public inquiry learn? because we have tried to learn? because we have tried to learn these lessons before when these horrible, horrible cases have happened in the past. in these horrible, horrible cases have happened in the past.— happened in the past. in terms of death we have _ happened in the past. in terms of death we have been _ happened in the past. in terms of death we have been talking, - happened in the past. in terms of- death we have been talking, dominic, about the length of time it took for

. — cases of beverley allitt and harold shipman, after those cases changes were put— shipman, after thosethe general medical— reservations around the general medical council were tightened up, deaths _ medical council were tightened up, deaths being referred to coroners after _ deaths being referred to coroners after harold shipman, that was tightened up. but still we see that lucy letby was able to carry out these _ lucy letby was able to carry out these awful murders and attempted murders _ these awful murders and attempted murders. what happened here was, this is— murders. what happened here was, this is a _ murders. what happened here was, this is a unit — murders. what happened here was, this is a unit that lost roughly, soften— this is a unit that lost roughly, soften the _ this is a unit that lost roughly, soften the tragic loss of three bables— soften the tragic loss of three babies a — soften the tragic loss of three babies a year normally, and they lost three — babies a year normally, and they lost three babies in a month. it is not like _ lost three babies in a month. it is not

i mean, if you can cast your mind back 20 years to harold shipman, the gp who was thought to have murderedients, an exhaustive inquiry was carried out into that in the early 2000 is, into that awful, awful episode, and i think we will see a very similar, deep dive into the circumstances around lucy letby�*s awful crimes. at the terrible thing is, many of the lessons that were drawn from harold shipman and before him, beverley allitt, a nurse who also murdered baby in the 1990s, many of those lessons will still apply here, and it is just an absolutely awful tragedy that these inquiries keep having to be held when this offending occurs.— having to be held when this offending occurs. having to be held when this offendin: occurs. . ., �* offending occurs. dominic, i don't know if there _ offending occurs. dominic, i don't know if there is _ offending occurs. dominic, i don't know if there is an _ offending occurs. dominic, i don't know if there is an overall - offending occurs. dominic, i don't know if there is an overall answer| know if there is an overall answer to this, but when it comes to

greater manchester gp harold shipman was convicted in 2000 of murdering 15 patients.iry called for a system of medical examiners essentially, experts who examine all deaths to spot unusual patterns. but they were only brought in this year. meanwhile, the father of one of the nurse beverley allitt�*s victims says — 30 years on — lessons still need to be learned. gill dummigan, who's the health correspondent for north west tonight, has this exclusive report. the health secretary orders an urgent investigation into how the nurse beverley allitt was able to murderfour babies in may 1993, it's may 1993, and beverley allitt has just been convicted of killing four children and attacking nine more at grantham and kesteven general hospital. after the trial, the government held an inquiry into what had gone wrong at the hospital. the clothier report came out in 1994 and it identified a number of failings. but a central finding was that because every death and collapse could have another initial explanation, and because nobody could believe that a colleague could deliberately ha

the greater manchester gp harold shipman, you may remember was convicted back into thousand of murderingr that court case called for a system of medical examiners —— in 2000. this would spot unusual patterns. but they were only brought in this year. meanwhile, the father of one of another victims says, 30 years onto the lessons from another case are left to be learned. the health correspondent for bbc north west tonight has this exclusive report. the health secretary orders an urgent investigation into how the nurse was able to murder for babies... it nurse was able to murder for babies- - -_ nurse was able to murder for babies... , ., �* , babies... it is may 1993 for beverly allott has just _ babies... it is may 1993 for beverly allott hasjust been _ babies... it is may 1993 for beverly allott hasjust been convicted - babies... it is may 1993 for beverly allott hasjust been convicted of. allott has just been convicted of killing clutch make children and attacking nine more. —— killing four children. the government held an inquiry into what had gone wrong at the hospital. the report cam

you'll have heard, everyone's heard of harold shipman, beverley allitt.our patch? it's really difficult to believe, to accept. i think there'll be some time of reflection for everybody that's been involved as to what we've been involved in and what this means in the future. but it has been a really shocking investigation to be part of. and i really hope that i'm not part of anything like this again. you are watching bbc news, plenty more coming up, don't go away. live from london. this is bbc news. the uk government orders an independent inquiry, after a hospitalfailed to investigate allegations against lucy letby — the nurse found guilty of murdering seven newborn babies in her care. uk police investigating the murder of 10—year—old sara sharif, found dead in a house in the southeastern town of woking, have identified three people they want to talk to in connection with the inquiry. sara's father, urfan sharif, his partner, beinash batool, and urfan's brother, faisal malik. hurricane hilary heads towards north—west mexico before heading to california as

again, doctor harold shipman, the beginning of the 20005, convicted of killing 15 patients at, againsix or seven report5 independent inquiry, that had six or seven reports over a number of years, looking at his actions, the fact he may have killed over 200 people, that inquiry found. the question i get is speed versus detail, and compelling people. the government said in this case it wants a quicker inquiry. —— i guess. we are expecting the sentencing, but again questions as to why lucy letby will not be appearing. yes. again questions as to why lucy letby will not be appearing.— will not be appearing. yes. i mean, the issue there _ will not be appearing. yes. i mean, the issue there is _ will not be appearing. yes. i mean, the issue there is it's _ will not be appearing. yes. i mean, the issue there is it's her— will not be appearing. yes. i mean, the issue there is it's her choice, i the issue there is it's her choice, and she is saying she's not going to do that. the question then, should something be done about that? question has been around for some time. last year there thenjus

beverley allitt, harold shipman and colin norris were all convicted of murdering their patients.tby, in each case, the authorities were asked, why weren't they stopped sooner? dr shipman targeted those who trusted him, elderly, vulnerable patients, and injected them with morphine. the bodies of nine of his victims were exhumed as part of the police investigation. he was jailed in 2000, and killed himself in prison four years later. she has been found with a quantity, that much, insulin in her. elderly patients were also the target of colin norris, a young nurse who went rogue. in 2008, he was found guilty of murdering four, and trying to kill a fifth. but the closest comparison to letby is perhaps beverley allitt — also a nurse in her 20s, also working on a children's ward, this time in lincolnshire. in 1993, allitt received 13 life sentences for the murder and attempted murder of infants. and we thought we would try and look at this to see how big the phenomenon was... criminologist david wilson has studied doctors and nurses who become serial killers. the person who kills withi

names of course come to mind lot doctor harold shipman, but it is a rare thing but what is it is someere saying there, somebody who is seeking that thrill from killing, to actually work in the medical profession because i think as a society, we find that particularly chilling, don't we?— find that particularly chilling, don't we? , ., ., don't we? yes, indeed. you do find serial killers _ don't we? yes, indeed. you do find serial killers sometimes _ don't we? yes, indeed. you do find serial killers sometimes getting - serial killers sometimes getting 'obs serial killers sometimes getting jobs where they actually have access to victims. _ jobs where they actually have access to victims, so that's one possibility. i cannot say that that is the _ possibility. i cannot say that that is the case — possibility. i cannot say that that is the case with lucy letby, but what _ is the case with lucy letby, but what sometimes happens is having access— what sometimes happens is having access is— what sometimes happens is having access is incidental and it develops overtime — access is incidental a

beverley allitt, harold shipman and colin norris were all convicted of murdering their patients.ose who trusted him — elderly, vulnerable patients — and injected them with morphine. the bodies of nine of his victims were exhumed as part of the police investigation. he was jailed in 2000 and killed himself in prison four years later. she has been found with a quantity, that much, insulin in her. elderly patients were also the target of colin norris, a young nurse who went rogue. in 2008, he was found guilty of murdering four and trying to kill a fifth. but the closest comparison to letby is perhaps beverley allitt — also a nurse in her 20s, also working on a children's ward, this time in lincolnshire. in 1993, allitt received 13 life sentences for the murder and attempted murder of infants. and we thought we would try and look at this to see how big the phenomenon was... criminologist david wilson has studied doctors and nurses who become serial killers. the person who kills within a healthcare setting has already developed the desire to kill before they join the healthcare settin

we of course saw harold shipman as well, who was who was found out and sentenced in the year 2000.believe . and year 2000. and i believe. and now of course we have lucy letby. it seems that there's almost a pattern of behaviour here and lessons that have not been learned . been learned. >> well, look, tom, i think it's really important that we all remember that the vast majority of professional within the nhs andindeed of professional within the nhs and indeed everybody working there do a superb job for us all and it is tragic and appalling that where one person like letby and the ones you've mentioned is able to have such of an autonomy, if you like , a, you autonomy, if you like, a, you know, a control over situation that then, you know, murder and mayhem can ensue . i think from mayhem can ensue. i think from what we're seeing , the emerging what we're seeing, the emerging reports about this case do reveal that a number of professionals had deep concerns and there were clearly complaint procedures and a number of processes that were undertaken within the nhs prior to the arrest

the whatf harold shipman. >> who's running this system? ? the what the hellshipman. >> who's running this system? the what the hell was �*nan. >> who's running this system? the what the hell was going mean, what the hell was going on?ifs mean, what the hell was going on? it's outrageous , isn't it? on? it's outrageous, isn't it? >> so, yeah, i mean, that's a that's a fair point. i mean, this this seems to be almost i mean, although i'm people mean, although i'm sure people from government mean, although i'm sure people from say government mean, although i'm sure people from say, government mean, although i'm sure people from say , oh, government mean, although i'm sure people from say , oh, no, government mean, although i'm sure people from say , oh, no, govevetfent would say, oh, no, we vet everybody. we follow strict, strict rules and protocols. but i mean, hillary, i've read about some of these cases. there was a case of a mother who only found out that her 23 year old son was going for this medically assisted dying. when she opened the

we had harold shipman, but she went in there knowing what she was going to do and she executed it inoded way. >> i find that utterly shocking that if that was why she went into nursing , that if that was why she went into nursing, i'm that if that was why she went into nursing , i'm absolutely into nursing, i'm absolutely stunned . and joe, if she is a stunned. and joe, if she is a psychopath , there will never be psychopath, there will never be any closure for the grieving families of those babies , families of those babies, because i expect then she is never going to explain why she behaved as she did . behaved as she did. >> and that's very common. and exactly the same happen with bev and others. they do not speak about it. anything to any of the, you know, prison mates or whatever. they just never discuss it again. it's not spoken about. and the only closure these poor families are going to get, if there is some sort of an inquiry into how on earth we ended up with seven consultants apologising to her or of her about her behaviour, and they accused her of something wrongly. so th

the whatf harold shipman. >> who's running this system? ? the what the hellshipman. >> who's running this system? the what the hell was �*nan. >> who's running this system? the what the hell was going mean, what the hell was going on?ifs mean, what the hell was going on? it's outrageous , isn't it? on? it's outrageous, isn't it? >> so, yeah, i mean, that's a that's a fair point. i mean, this this seems to be almost i mean, although i'm people mean, although i'm sure people from government mean, although i'm sure people from say government mean, although i'm sure people from say, government mean, although i'm sure people from say , oh, government mean, although i'm sure people from say , oh, no, government mean, although i'm sure people from say , oh, no, govevetfent would say, oh, no, we vet everybody. we follow strict, strict rules and protocols. but i mean, hillary, i've read about some of these cases. there was a case of a mother who only found out that her 23 year old son was going for this medically assisted dying. when she opened the

we heard that with harold shipman.. another i'd like to talk another thing i'd like to talk about, catherine, is, this, about, catherine, is, is this, i think unfair situation think grossly unfair situation where now she won't even have to face the music in the dock. she has the option to opt out. so i know that alex chalk, the justice minister, has been talking about changing that law, and think we should get and i really think we should get behind because to dodge behind that because to dodge just this in as as being just this in as far as being facing family here in the facing the family here in the charges, looking them in the eye here the devastation of their here in the devastation of their victim statements that in court surely we must change that law to give parents and victims the right to a voice . right to a voice. >> it seems beyond belief. doesn't it? it's like the final insuh doesn't it? it's like the final insult that after the unspeakable misery and horror she's visited upon these families , she gets to

yeah, it's going to take harold shipman. >> you know, we don't we don't know the full extent of his murderseither. and is it the case that you know, in a large pubuc case that you know, in a large public sector organised nation that's really a monolith with no competitors? isn't the competitors? there isn't the accountability you'd get in accountability that you'd get in accountability that you'd get in a in a smaller , more agile organisation? >> absolutely . yeah, i think >> absolutely. yeah, i think that's true. i've got a friend who unfortunately him and his wife had a miscarriage and then they subsequently a letter they subsequently got a letter calling them in for a scan for a baby that had already passed and they complained and they complained about it and then another letter for then they got another letter for then they got another letter for the think, the same. and you just think, you know. what do they do you know. and what do they do about that? nothing. that's. yeah i mean, yeah. >> without without that >> without that, without that drive, throughout drive, that incentive thro

>> this is very similar to >> well, this is very similar to harold shipman where i mean, i don't know how many people i mean, our audience remembers this, but i mean, where this guy was killing , he killed hundreds was killing, he killed hundreds of people. i think it was over 200 people. i think he was even more that . killed. yeah. more than that. killed. yeah. and they could have they could have seen it just by looking at this statistics that sort of the rise in deaths that were part of the problem here is that she was working with very vulnerable babies who were far more likely to die than an average baby. >> they were already sick. so they're premature babies and babies . babies. >> they're actually in a place where they're overwhelmingly likely live. so it was it was likely to live. so it was it was unusual that so many babies died and colleagues did raise the alarm. but unfortunately , they alarm. but unfortunately, they weren't listened to. in fact, they were the colleagues who raised they enforced raised the alarm. they enforced to letters apology , to write letters of apolog

news archive: today dr harold j frederick shipman was convicted of murdering 15 of his patients.of the day, i've worked with so many serial killers in my career, and all of them quite liked having the power to be able to decide who would live and who would die. because of course, that's the ultimate power for god. does lucy letby fit the profile of what you'd say is a health care serial killer? no, she doesn't. she is very social. she's very socialised, she has friendship groups. she has people in the hospital who, um, befriended her, mentored her. she is somebody that's seen not suspiciously. there's no evidence that she's fascinated by serial killers. i read the prosecution's opening account of the evidence and i thought, is that it? and i say that because i kept thinking there would be more. clearly it's circumstantial, and often murder cases are often solved by circumstantial evidence, but there was no smoking gun in the letby case. it wasn't just the five unexpected deaths that were creating suspicion. another five babies almost died on the unit in unusual circumstances over

harold shipman , fred west and harold shipman, fred west and others who have not been able to face theuences of their own actions and have not been able to deal with the whole life term. so what they've done is taken their own lives. the prison service must be on red alert to ensure that lucy letby serves until her own natural causes. dying serves until her own natural causes . dying day. causes. dying day. >> okay. and how does that happen then? does she have to have regular checks or someone have regular checks or someone have to be continually watching her? how does that work in practise >> absolutely. she can't have bed linen, for example, that could be shredded into strips and then made into a noose. she can't have crockery or cutlery of any description that could be adapted into a weapon with which she could self harm. and take her own life. yeah, things like that. very practical things that many in the prison service are used to doing. it's quite it's quite a regular thing with regards to some prisoners who are on suicide watch . but i just are on suicide watch. but i just urge

these harold shipman as well.and be should go into a hospital and be absolutely they're absolutely trusting. they're going best treatment going to get the best treatment . you cheshire police >> you praise cheshire police for what they've done so far, but now whether but one wonders now whether they're some they're going to need some outside bearing in mind the outside help bearing in mind the scale they've in scale of what they've got in front of them. scale of what they've got in absolutely, because cheshire constabulary is a very small force. >> you know, it's surrounded by manchester merseyside police manchester and merseyside police and they'll have of course, they've got they've got senior detectives involved in this case and they'll every day and they'll have every day they'll there'll and they'll have every day the burglaries there'll and they'll have every day the burglaries , there'll and they'll have every day the burglaries , robberies,�*re'll and they'll have every day theburglaries , robberies, rapes

the inquiry into harold shipman , for inquiry into harold shipman, for example.here were overseas experts looking at that, looking at gp practises and so on, and that was a pretty thorough searching inquiry that came up with far with far reaching recommendations. i don't think that's going to be an issue here. i mean, let's remember it was consultants, it was hospital doctors who were effectively blowing the whistle on lucy letby. it was it was the management. we are we are told from everything that we've seen who were sort of ignoring some of those warnings or brushing them aside. it would seem from from everything that we've heard so far . personally from everything that we've heard so far. personally don't so far. so i personally don't think that would be a problem . think that would be a problem. i'm pretty sure that independent doctors could give good evidence and good advice. danny thank you for your take today. >> we've got to leave it there. danny shaw, thank you. you know, the thing is, isabel, i think a lot of people you see this particularly with socia

i mean, you know, there are enough similarities here with shipman case for with the harold shipman casene's alarm bells to have been sounded . so it just is the sounded. so it just is the feeling that there never is going to be a satisfactory remedy, certainly within the pubuc remedy, certainly within the public sector. remedy, certainly within the public sector . james says even public sector. james says even within the broader british economy , yeah, i'm absolutely economy, yeah, i'm absolutely not against the media digging and digging very hard. >> and when it finds facts to report those facts and we can then make our judgements on it, then make ourjudgements on it, it's just really difficult to know that the facts have always been reported accurately . and so been reported accurately. and so i think a degree of caution is needed. but we're all blowers needed. but we're all blowers need to be protected. we really need to be protected. we really need to be protected. we really need to have a robust system, perhaps more robust than we already have, to make sure that people can blow the

news archive: today dr harold j frederick shipman was convicted of murdering 15 of his patients.th so many serial killers in my career, and all of them quite liked having the power to be able to decide who would live and who would die. because of course, that's the ultimate power for god. does lucy letby fit the profile of what you'd say is a health care serial killer? no, she doesn't. she is very social. she's very socialised, she has friendship groups. she has people in the hospital who, um, befriended her, mentored her. she is somebody that's seen not suspiciously. there's no evidence that she's fascinated by serial killers. i read the prosecution's opening account of the evidence and i thought, is that it? and i say that because i kept thinking there would be more. clearly it's circumstantial, and often murder cases are often solved by circumstantial evidence, but there was no smoking gun in the letby case. it wasn't just the five unexpected deaths that were creating suspicion. another five babies almost died on the unit in unusual circumstances over the same period. lucy let

we had shipman, course, had harold shipman, of course, in how can it in this country.e be that there was this attitude that possibly be that it couldn't possibly be happening? happened happening? it has happened before lessons before and unless lessons learnt, say this learnt, we always say this unless i learned, unless the lessons i learned, somebody point try somebody at some point will try and again. and do it again. >> and by the way, and you're absolutely right at least absolutely right here at least five of those senior executive have on other have either moved on to other jobs in other health authorities or on golden pensions of or retired on golden pensions of up to £18 million. pension pots. it's an absolute disgrace. and they should be dragged back to court and asked to account for the fact that they stood around doing nothing and for the hundreds of millions of pounds that we spend on management in the nhs . the nhs. >> i'm amazed that the data didn't just flag up. i mean, this a real aberration, real this is a real aberration, real out of ordinary. these ar

we had shipman, course, had harold shipman, of course, in how can it in this country.e be that there was this attitude that possibly be that it couldn't possibly be happening? happened happening? it has happened before lessons before and unless lessons learnt, say this learnt, we always say this unless i learned, unless the lessons i learned, somebody point try somebody at some point will try and again. and do it again. >> and by the way, and you're absolutely right at least absolutely right here at least five of those senior executive have on other have either moved on to other jobs in other health authorities or on golden pensions of or retired on golden pensions of up to £18 million. pension pots. it's an absolute disgrace. and they should be dragged back to court and asked to account for the fact that they stood around doing nothing and for the hundreds of millions of pounds that we spend on management in the nhs . the nhs. >> i'm amazed that the data didn't just flag up. i mean, this a real aberration, real this is a real aberration, real out of ordinary. these ar

if you've got sudden spike or a sudden aberration in the number of babies or whoever is with harold shipman's that's surely going to raise alarm. >> yeah , the exactly. >> yeah, the exactly. >> yeah, the exactly. >> the consultants did that. that's why the independent inquiry has got to get moving really quickly to find out why this data didn't go outside the hospital. trust. i mean , there hospital. trust. i mean, there must be some sort of national reporting to say to throw this kind of anomaly up. >> well, they said why in a quote, they said, why? they said that the management team did not want this to go to another agency, i.e. the police, because they did not want to disrupt the workings of the neonatal unit and they did not want to harm the reputation of the hospital. >> well, i i'm looking forward to seeing what the inquiry finds out from that. >> but it's time now for the headune >> but it's time now for the headline heroes and back page zeros lender. who's your hero ? zeros lender. who's your hero? >> sarina wiegman , i think has >> sarina wiegman, i think has to be the hero. and peo

if you've got sudden spike or a sudden aberration in the number of babies or whoever is with harold shipman's that's surely going to raise alarm. >> yeah , the exactly. >> yeah, the exactly. >> yeah, the exactly. >> the consultants did that. that's why the independent inquiry has got to get moving really quickly to find out why this data didn't go outside the hospital. trust. i mean , there hospital. trust. i mean, there must be some sort of national reporting to say to throw this kind of anomaly up. >> well, they said why in a quote, they said, why? they said that the management team did not want this to go to another agency, i.e. the police, because they did not want to disrupt the workings of the neonatal unit and they did not want to harm the reputation of the hospital. >> well, i i'm looking forward to seeing what the inquiry finds out from that. >> but it's time now for the headune >> but it's time now for the headline heroes and back page zeros lender. who's your hero ? zeros lender. who's your hero? >> sarina wiegman , i think has >> sarina wiegman, i think has to be the hero. and peo

harold shipman is the obvious other example.the previous angel of death as well was an ernst. our people with a particular proclivity to this drug born towards that profession. do you think ? think? >> yes , they are. and it's >> yes, they are. and it's unfortunate , of course, they unfortunate, of course, they then obviously placed, you know, in a position where they can control life and death over a large number of people. but it's a case that you cannot really filter out. people until they actually start doing something suspicious . so, okay, these suspicious. so, okay, these people are fairly rare in the medical profession. this isn't something that's happening every day. then they are the exception, not the rule. so to find them to actually seek them out, you need to start having a kind of audit trail. out, you need to start having a kind of audit trail . but for kind of audit trail. but for medics that if once they actually create a suspicion , actually create a suspicion, then you go in, you have cctv , then you go in, yo

harold shipman is the obvious other example.the previous angel of death as well was an ernst. our people with a particular proclivity to this drug born towards that profession. do you think ? think? >> yes , they are. and it's >> yes, they are. and it's unfortunate , of course, they unfortunate, of course, they then obviously placed, you know, in a position where they can control life and death over a large number of people. but it's a case that you cannot really filter out. people until they actually start doing something suspicious . so, okay, these suspicious. so, okay, these people are fairly rare in the medical profession. this isn't something that's happening every day. then they are the exception, not the rule. so to find them to actually seek them out, you need to start having a kind of audit trail. out, you need to start having a kind of audit trail . but for kind of audit trail. but for medics that if once they actually create a suspicion , actually create a suspicion, then you go in, you have cctv , then you go in, yo

but then you also have you also have your harold shipman, etcetera.n, etcetera. so i wouldn't deny in any way, shape or form that it's possible to construe those particular comments as to do male and female. but we do with male and female. but we have look the reality is have to look the reality is there's parallel with the there's a parallel with the whole thing where whole grooming gangs thing where people say, oh, grooming gangs, grooming gangs, pakistani men, pakistani actually pakistani men, when actually a lot grooming that lot of the grooming that happened this country is by happened in this country is by men of european and british descent . um, there is some descent. um, there is some degree a connection with the idea of this this image of the engush idea of this this image of the english rose, this image of the blonde kind of virtuous english woman and innocence and no one is saying that that, that bbc journalist might not have been referring to male, female, this, that and the rest. caregiving profession when you have good points. the point

but the most prolific serial killer in english history, harold shipman , was in a health care shipmanwas in a health care setting. beverley allitt, who i've mentioned. there are others who have been convicted, people like colin norris and ben gay and if we begin to understand that , we can and if we begin to understand that, we can begin to think about how and one of the things about how and one of the things about this case that we absolutely must not forget, i think, is the unsung heroics of those doctors who recognise something very wrong was going on and wouldn't back down. and they're one of the best. the reasons that today i think , you reasons that today i think, you know, we have a guilty verdict. then we had children protected . then we had children protected. then we had children protected. the thing is, is there an opportunity to do that earlier in this exchange? >> james? it's shocking . james, >> james? it's shocking. james, let me cut in here because it's absolutely shocking. you make a series points. series of really good points. yes, absolutely. credit to yes, absolute