let's discuss tomorrow's news tonight with former deputy assistant attorney general larry -- harry lippmanald trump to respond to the grand jury. no one is expecting that he is going to do that and the special counsel's scheduling more witness interviews, we have learned, over the coming weeks. what does that mean for the timing of an indictment and is it certain that there will be, one in your estimation? >> yes. i can think of once or twice in my whole career that a target letter has not been followed by an indictment and here, this is not a kind of casual matter where doj would be considering it. it is a dundee,'ll it is already there is a model indictment drafted. it is already got up to garland and the whole brass, it is happening. now, the witness interviews are one thing, but you can do witness interviews after a grand jury has returned charges. so we do not know that, i think now he is ready to go. jack smith is all about speed right now and i think he's worried about the fulton county possible charges. i think the only thing left there is if trump wants to take an appeal, a final

attorney and deputy assistant attorney general, harry lippman. harry, always good to see you. there are three potential charges mentioned in this target letter to trump. deprivation of rights under color of law, conspiracy to defraud the u.s., and tampering with a witness. let's talk about that first one, the deprivation of rights under color of law. what does that entail? also, overall, house areas are these charges? >> yet,, so that, when, seat was a bit of a surprise. everybody did expect the other two, one involves probably false electors. one involves the pressure campaign on pence. but that first one is a stand in for what there isn't in these charges, which is some of the wrecked insurrection charge. so, this is a civil rights charge. the statue has actually passed in wake of reconstruction, to keep the ku klux klan from bridging the rights of the newly freed slaves. so, it's been used, as it may be used here, to get action that abridges votes, prevents them from being equally counted. the exact theory, there's a lot of theorize about on either side. but the important p

also with us harry lippman, former u.s. attorney former deputy assistant attorney general. he's a senior legal affairs columnist for the los angeles times. christie greenberg, in a normal case we wouldn't have any tip off at all that someone has been indicted until we see them going into the courthouse to report for the arraignment. that could be what happens this time if donald trump's pardons up and realizes he's only doing us a favor by telling us ahead of time that we have to plan for the coverage? >> you are absolutely right. so criminal indictments remain under seal. it means they are not public until the point where the defendant is arrested at which point the prosecutors will submit an order to unseal that indictment so that the charges of in public. once he is arrested or once he voluntarily surrenders which is more likely, at that point the prosecutors would submit that order and we would get to see what the charges looked like. >> harry lippman, the whole point of the first announcement that he made about the manhattan indictment was telling people to come from a

attorney harry lippman and former federal prosecutor brian jacobs. harry, let me start with you. let's start with carlos de oliveira, who is the latest person to be caught up in this legal web. so according to the indictment, de oliveira helped move about 30 boxes around mar-a-lago as well as onto trump's plane, but he denied knowledge of the boxes to the fbi. so how much trouble could he be in? >> well, he was already in some trouble then, alisyn. he had several lies. they had him on surveillance footage. he was dead to rights. so they said to him, look, we want you to cooperate here and just tell us what else happened. and if you don't, we're going to charge you with something much more serious, obstruction, conspiracy to obstruct, which they also had him dead to rights on because after the doj sent a draft subpoena saying, we care about the surveillance footage, that's when he goes to employee number four, aka mr. ta vavares and says the boss wants this deleted. and there follows all kinds of ham-handed plotting with him and nauta and tunnels and trying to figure out how you c

for more on this breaking story i bring back elliott women's and harry lippman. to get a fuller picture and remind people peter strzok was working on the russia investigation criticizing trump or making public he's in this lawsuit against them essentially for violating his privacy rights by releasing those text messages but also is saying in it he was wrongfully terminated. now in this john kelly has given a sworn statement and i want to read part of it. i says, president trump questioned whether investigations by the irs or other federal agencies should be undertaken into mr. strzok and or mrs. page. i do not know if president trump ordering such an investigation. it appeared however he wanted to see mr. strzok and miss page investigated. what do you make thereof story? >> so, let's step back from the story for a second and go the underlying principle here. in a healthy democracy there ought to be a divide between law enforcement and the president. frankly this july 4th week something the framers wanted to establish that the president ought not be directing inve

harry lippman, joyce vance, thank you for making this so much more clear for all of us. still ahead, brand-new charges against donald trump and jack smith's election investigation hasn't even concluded concluded. i'll talk about it's unique importance with congressman jamie raskin, coming up next. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ frustrated by skin tags? dr. scholl's has the breakthrough you've been waiting for. the first fda-cleared at-home skin tag remover clinically proven to remove skin tags safely in as little as one treatment. >> the newly-filed superseding indictment in the classified documents case now charges the ex president with a total of 40 felony counts. this unexpected news today, very unexpected, comes as we continue to stay on indictment watch. in the special counsel's other criminal investigation to the ex president. it is worth noting that the public record on donald trump's multi-pronged attempts to subvert democracy is so vast, because the january 6th committee did so much legwork. they did ten months of investigations including the collectio

joining us now, harry lippman, former deputy assistant attorney general, senior legal affairs columnist for the los angeles times. also with us, peter strzok, former deputy of the fbi's counter intelligence division and he's an abject professor at georgetown university school of foreign services. gentlemen, good scene this morning. harry litman, tell me about the particular exchange,, de oliveira. . . ? it's a cautionary signal. it's legal if they do it right. but there is a guy, and nauta's guy is stanley woodward, and it's been a full employment act for him. he has a reputation of being solid, but we have not simply that trump is paying him and representing so many people, but both walt nauta and now carlos de oliveira, represented by another person, scream out as being people who need to cooperate. they have everything to lose, nothing to gain. by the way, and on the choice of good fellows here, it was perfect. because it's not this kind of somber -- it really is bumbling. oh wow, surveillance footage? how do we go about. it it's a ham-handed campiotti, and they are dead to rights. i

harry lippman, joyce vance, thank you for making this so much more clear for all of us.ld trump and jack smith's election investigation hasn't even concluded concluded. i'll talk about it's unique importance with congressman jamie raskin, coming up next. , coming up next than detergent alone. if you want laundry to smell fresh for weeks, make sure you have downy unstopables in-wash scent boosters. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my clearer skin... my way. with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. in another study, most people had 90% clearer skin, even at 5 years. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. thanks to clearer skin with skyrizi - this is my moment. there's nothing on my skin and

now, luke broadwater, pulitzer prize-winning congressional reporter with the new york times, and harry lippmanney general, and host of the talking feds podcast. welcome to you both. the loop, so many head spinning the headlines in recent days. what are you hearing from your sources about the investigations and what's highest on your radar? >> you're right, if you talk to allies of donald trump, they fully expect him to be charged in all of the investigations. both the january six investigation that the jacks mitt is running, and also the investigation and georgia, which is also into another element of january six. >> hey, luke, can i ask you, let me ask you, do they have those expectations because they're seen legal reasons, they're seen evidence that is pointing towards this, or at least allegations of such, or do they think, oh this is political new just going after him? >> they probably think a bit of both, right? they're watching the evidence that we are reporting on, the news your reporting on. they see the things that are coming out, the witnesses that are going, and the questions that a

i'm joined tonight by harry lippman, and former chief assistant district attorney, from manhattan d. a. office, karen friedman. thank you both for being here, karen when you find out that jared kushner went before the grand jury. not investigators, which is what some people who have gone to jack smith's team have gone, they actually before the grand jury in june. what would you have wanted to ask him about those efforts to overturn the election? >> i think more than anything, you want to lock him into his testimony. under oath, you want before it is a chance to hear what other witnesses have to, say and before donald trump even amounts of defense, you want to lock him in. he's someone very close to donald trump. and you want him, you want to know exactly what he's going to say, and what he's not going to say. you also want to know, what are some things that donald trump said to him, and what did donald trump say about losing the election, and january six, and there are several areas that jack smith can ask him about. but he was clearly a very close adviser, and when bill barr, for ex

harry lippman joins us now. he is the former deputy assistant general in the department of justice. danya perry served as deputy attorney general for the new york state. the bunk is for the washington post where he has written extensively about the various investigations into donald trump. they watch us now. harry, i wonder what you make of this latest development? >> in a sense, it is cumulative, alicia. right? we have known about the pressure campaign to the governors, michigan to georgia, with electors in nevada. so, on the one hand, it is not a surprise. kind of par for the course for trump. on the other, if you look at it in isolation, you know, really troubling for the same reasons the others were. the big difference here? no actual audiotapes. if -- it seems to me, smith is right about the business about taking this sprawling january 6th mountain of cases, which really comprise five or six potential chargeable crimes. winnowing out perhaps, a single charge of the false electors. nevertheless he's covering a lot of front. i'm not exactly surprised he has brought d.c. and befor