spending three hours with henry paulsen can be exhausting. he has so much energy. he came across when he was treasure secretary as somewhere inarticulate. i found him extremely articulate and charming. incredibly charming. three hours later with an alpha male, i was exhausted. >> host: i was going to ask you about hank paulsen. because that was one -- the portrait of henry paulsen that comes out in the book is one the rev tour parts of it. because you show how he started out as such a straight arrow and raised up into management because he had honesty, he established good relationships with people. he was a relationship banker. >> guest: he's not going to embarrass the firm. as some other partners had been doing about the time that hank paulsen was elevated to the management of the firm. >> host: but maybe i misread it. i received him as ending up as a machiavellian figure who ended up edging out his co-chairman john corzine and other people in the firm that he pushed out opinion >> guest: it's true. >> host: almost like a back stabber in that regard. he's an extre