require the state department to certify that they are not working with these networks, including hikani. if that cannot be certified the foreign aid will be cut off. i wanted to get your thoughts on that legal conclusion. >> well, i think, congressman, what president czzardari told y on behalf of the civilian leadership of the government of pakistan is true. he has been a good partner in going after terrorism that threatens his country and afghanistan and our troops. we have no evidence of any high-level official knowing about bin laden. but, like you, i have to assume that lower level people, you know, had to have known something. but we haven't proven that. it could be asserted, but not yet proven. so this is a -- you know, this is a complicated, difficult relationship. and what we are doing now is making it very clear what our expectations have to be going forward. and there is no doubt in my mind that certain elements of the pakistani government are more ambivalent about cracking down on terrorism than other elements. when i sit across from the foreign minister or talk to the ambass

one of them is corruption in the karzai government, and the other is sanctuary is pakistan for the hikanier organizations. serious impediment to achieving final success in afghanistan. >> looking where we are right now, have we had, quote, success in iraq and success in afghanistan if today is our date of determining success? >> in the words of general keen, one of the architects of the surge in iraq, we won the peace and we are losing the war. we should have had and could have it a residual force of this 20,000. president never wanted that. he said he campaigned on getting out of iraq, we are out of iraq. the situation there is unraveling, tragically. in the case of afghanistan, i think if he listen to our advisors and kept the troops there for another fighting season, the situation would have been much more stable and perhaps karzai might have been a little more reliable than he's displaying today. it is all based on perception. and victories are won on the battlefield and they are also won psychologically in war. and by the president's continuous pronouncements that we are leaving, it

but again, the hikani network and what is up in is pakistan. all of these organizations. >> and they are very lethal. they have been successful to some degree in their attacks. >> they have. >> i just went to cover a few more things to bring them into line. going into the fall, the taliban, they were successful in assassinating the chairman of the afghan high peace council. late last year, the district governor of one province was successfully assassinated. a member of the afghan parliament and former chief of the police in some provinces, that was a successful attack and assassination. the police chief in one area, that one failed, was not successful, but there were some deaths and casualties since mid with it. going into this year, the district governor in one province was assassinated by the taliban. the prominent anti-taliban tribal leader in one area was successfully as fascinated by the taliban. the u.n. reports that 462 civilians were assassinated by the taliban in 2012 -- excuse me, 2010 alone. and so, you would argue by these numbers t